Graflex.org

[Paul Kinzer]

I'm looking at buying a Horseman 970 or 980 6x9 field camera. I already own a 2x3 Speed Graphic, as well as a Mamiya RB67, and have backs that will work on these, actually including a newer Horseman 6x9 back. I'd obviously like touse the backs I have on the camera I buy.

But I've read in many places now that the older Horseman cameras, like the 970 and 980, do not allow the use of either RB, Graflex, or other 6x9 backs (Wista, etc.) because of some kind of protruding metal on the 970 and 980 bodies. Nearly all of the places that mention this say something along the lines of 'In order to use these other backs on these cameras, the camera itself will need to by modified. There are many places online that describe how to do this modification.' Really? Because I've been looking for hours now and cannot find anything along those lines; no images, instructions, links, nada.

The newer Horseman 6x9s -- the 985, the VH, VH-R, and the ER-1 -- all allow the use of normal, common 6x9 Graflok type film backs (including the Horseman one I own, which was made for the newer cameras). So, why not just get one of them? Because I'm cheap!

I'm also handy, and own plenty of tools, including an old and still somewhat useful milling machine. I like repairing, refurbishing, modifying and upgrading old cameras (I've had well over a hundred Speed and Crown graphics go through my hands.)

Can someone help me out, please? Either with a link, images, or a description of just what needs to be done? I've looked at images of all the backs of the Horseman cameras, and cannot tell from that. I figure I could probably just order the camera (from Japan, where most seem to be), and figure it out once it gets here, by holding the film holder up to it. But I could also be wrong; a very common occurrence!

[Paul Kinzer]

Hmmm.... over a hundred people have viewed my post, but no replies. I guess my quandary is uncommon enough for that to not be a surprise.

I'm going to go ahead and order the 980, even though the post has not been up long, because I lack patience. (I've wondered about these cameras for years, and already own the 65mm lens made for them.) I'll figure out the mod it needs once it gets here, or maybe someone will answer the post in the meantime.

I'll try to remember to take some images and post them here, just so anyone else trying to figure this out can find some information on it, rather than just a statement about it being necessary.

I have a varied bunch of lenses that could work well on this camera, though they weren't made for it, other than the 65 f/7 Topcor. I've got a 90mm f/6.8 Wollensak wide angle Raptar, a Wollensak 101mm F/4.5 Velostigmat, a 150mm f/6.3 Rodenstock Geronar, a 162mm f/4.5 Graflex Optar, a 210mm f/6.8 Geronar, and a 10" f/5.6 Graflex Tele-Optar.

This is obviously way more lenses than I need. A few I already had, and I found a few more for a frankencamera project that hasn't worked out the way I'd hoped: I found a very inexpensive Pacemaker 3x4 Speed Graphic, and modified it with a Toyo 6x9 sliding back. It works just fine, but the sliding back adds so much distance from the lens to the film plane that I cannot get lenses wider than 100mm to come to infinity focus on it.

I knew this was probably going to happen, but hoped that, with the 3x4's larger lens board opening (compared to my 2x3), I could find a way to make recessed lens boards for wider lenses. It's why I bought the 65mm Topcor lens. But, so far, no such luck. The front opening is still too small for any lenses I've found. I'm not giving up, though. The focal plane shutter will allow me to try small lenses in barrel, which don't have all the doohickeys sticking out that shuttered lenses do.

A cool thing is that the lens boards I made for the 3x4 frankencamera are almost the right size to fit on the Horseman! The 3x4 wants boards that are 80x83mm. I got a chunk of 1/8th-inch thick aluminum, and, so far, have made 6 boards. All I need to do to get them to fit on the 980 is to grind off 1.5mm from the top and the bottom of each board. Easy peazy!

The horseman cameras use cams for each lens in order to allow rangefinder focusing. These sell for silly amounts of money on eBay (over $50 for a 1.5-inch long bit of metal!) I've found a bunch of images of these cams, and plan to make my own.

Anyway, can you tell I don't really have anyone to discuss this stuff with? I have a lot of fun with this kind of thing, but no one nearby who could give a shrug about it. I'd be grateful for any thoughts anyone reading this might have.

[Dan Fromm]

Sorry I couldn't tell you anything about Horseman roll holders. I know nothing about them.

But, you might look here for cams for y'r 980. Please understand that they are specific to Horseman/Topcon lenses for Horseman 2x3 cameras. Also remember that Graflex Inc. offered cams for top RF 4x5 Pacemaker Graphics; they insisted that because the focal lengths of lenses as made don't always match the focal length engraved on the lens, it was important to have custom cams for the lenses in hand. I hope this is clear enough.

[Paul Kinzer]

Thanks, Dan!

Much of what I know about 6x9 Graphic cameras and the lenses that might work on them comes from reading the very clear and helpful information you've posted here and elsewhere, and, especially, the links you provide to your even more complete writings.

I've owned several of the top rangefinder Graphics, but prefer the older cameras with the side-mounted Kalarts. When I was much more involved with Graphic stuff, finding the cams, at least for me, proved impossible. I never saw one. Even though you can only adjust the Kalarts for one lens at a time, they are adjustable.

Now, I have a mid-sized milling machine. It's old and worn and not perfect, but it's really opened up what I can make and modify. I seldom used the rangefinders on the Graphic cameras I had, preferring the ground glass. But I think it will be different with the Horseman, since I already have several lenses I want to fit onto it, and the shape of the cams seems simple enough. and the rangefinder looks to be much larger and easier to access with my eye.

I still have a 4x5 Crown, for when I get the gumption to use my 6x12 back, and I'm having fun putting together the 2x3 Speed kit for my son's upcoming birthday. I've found that repairing and refurbishing old things is actually much more appealing than actually using them for taking photos. Which is, for me, a good thing, since I have ongoing health issues that make field trips difficult. I'm hoping the Horseman camera might at least get me out testing its capabilities in my local area.

I'm going to also say here that my initial reason for posting has actually gone away: I found a good deal on a 985 Horseman ($150!), and it was the first model to take the regular Graflok/universal backs. I could have gotten a 980 for even less, but since I have more than half a dozen backs already -- most for the RB67 -- I figured it was worth the little higher price, rather than chancing my ability to modify the 980.

Sheesh, I tend to be wordy!

[Paul Kinzer]

Oh! I wrote all that and forgot something.

It's my understanding that Horseman also matched their cams to specific lenses. Each cam comes with a serial number stamped on it.But I've seen a few posts where people have said they made their own, and that they worked with a bit of tweaking. I'm fairly good at tweaking. Since only one of my lenses is actually from Horseman, tweaking will be needed!

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks for the kind words.

Re Horseman cams, I tried to direct you to buyee.jp, an english language front end to yahoo.jp. There are a fair number of used Horseman cams on offer there.

Good luck, have fun.

[Paul Kinzer]

Thanks, Dan!

I went to buyee.jp and found several cams. All of them were either for the 75mm, 105mm, and -- mostly -- the 180mm lenses. The 'buyout' prices were much lower than eBay offerings, though Idon't know what the fees and shipping costs would be. I bookmarked a couple of them and will check back.