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4 x 5 movie film
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: 4 x 5 movie film Reply with quote

I have a contact print of two 4 x 5 b&w movie film frames with the code
AC 43 52342 in one of 3 perforations.

Can anyone identify the film and any camera(s) that might have used it?
Image date is 1961.
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Movie? If so, not from any camera (70mm was the widest ever used for movie, at least past the early experimental stage). But trick cameras or optical (effects) copy benches sometimes can/could use 4x5 and bigger intermediates to make matting and retouching easier.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sevo wrote:
Movie? If so, not from any camera (70mm was the widest ever used for movie, at least past the early experimental stage). But trick cameras or optical (effects) copy benches sometimes can/could use 4x5 and bigger intermediates to make matting and retouching easier.


I have seen and printed 70mm but this film is 5 inches wide apparently
with no perforations (code I mentioned in perforation "pattern" is on film).
I have seen this film before on spools and it is just like movie film but no
perforations. I would like to post an image but cannot. Apparently the
Hulcher camera could run this size film.
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Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1425
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kodak made 5"-wide roll film on spools for use in aero cameras. I remember it listed in a Kodak professional products guide that I have somewhere around here. I'm very doubtful whether they still make it. You can always go to the Kodak web site and poke around for info there.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry wrote:
Kodak made 5"-wide roll film on spools for use in aero cameras. I remember it listed in a Kodak professional products guide that I have somewhere around here. I'm very doubtful whether they still make it. You can always go to the Kodak web site and poke around for info there.


Thanks - I will try that although as I recall I had no luck there before
looking up 70mm films. I did find a site listing discontinued films by name
and number but no actual details as to type, size and length.
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hulchers were/are sequence cameras - some of their smaller ones could be ordered with modidifations to achieve 25fps or more, but I have never heard of a 4x5" which did.

Sevo
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sevo wrote:
Hulchers were/are sequence cameras - some of their smaller ones could be ordered with modidifations to achieve 25fps or more, but I have never heard of a 4x5" which did.

Sevo


Thanks - I am stabbing in the dark about Hulcher for larger sizes above
70mm. Hoping to learn all the answers someday - cameras and film.
I am pretty certain about sequence cameras using large film - I have
seen 5-in and 9-inch films (the 9-inch was aerial recon film).
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Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1425
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, got it. From 1999 Kodak Professional Photographic Catalog, p. 15: Kodak Plus-X Aerographic Film 2402, cat. no. 165 3351, rolls 5 in. x 150 ft., Spec No. 991, Price per Roll $174.30. On 4-mil ESTAR base, medium speed (ISO A 200), fine grain. They also list a 70mm x 150 ft. infrared film (Aerographic 2424). All of the other films listed are 9-1/2" wide. Only ten years ago, Kodak was making a great number of film sizes. HTH.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry wrote:
OK, got it. From 1999 Kodak Professional Photographic Catalog, p. 15: Kodak Plus-X Aerographic Film 2402, cat. no. 165 3351, rolls 5 in. x 150 ft., Spec No. 991, Price per Roll $174.30. On 4-mil ESTAR base, medium speed (ISO A 200), fine grain. They also list a 70mm x 150 ft. infrared film (Aerographic 2424). All of the other films listed are 9-1/2" wide. Only ten years ago, Kodak was making a great number of film sizes. HTH.


Thanks for the information, Henry. I would like to get complete Kodak
product catalogs from 1958-1966 for my references. I do have some old
data booklets.

I used to stock Kodak film and paper in a retail store 1965-1967. Never
had so much fun learning that era's products (and touching all the
cameras!) Dupont and Agfa were major paper competitors to Kodak.
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthur LeBrun wrote:

Thanks - I will try that although as I recall I had no luck there before
looking up 70mm films.


IIRC you will have to call Kodak - these were always handled through a Kodak sales rep.

5" aerial backs weren't used in aviation only, but used to have some popularity in the 50's and 60's among large studios doing mail-order catalogue production and similar high throughput bulk jobs - Linhof even had preconfigured cameras for these applications.

But by the time I did internships in one such catalogue place in the early eighties, the 4x5" backs had already been replaced by 70mm.

Sevo
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sevo wrote:
Arthur LeBrun wrote:

Thanks - I will try that although as I recall I had no luck there before
looking up 70mm films.


IIRC you will have to call Kodak - these were always handled through a Kodak sales rep.

5" aerial backs weren't used in aviation only, but used to have some popularity in the 50's and 60's among large studios doing mail-order catalogue production and similar high throughput bulk jobs - Linhof even had preconfigured cameras for these applications.

But by the time I did internships in one such catalogue place in the early eighties, the 4x5" backs had already been replaced by 70mm.

Sevo


Thank you for the 70mm information and the commercial use of film backs. All the studios in my area did 8 x 10 film portraits - holders and
all (Hollywood).
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camz



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 123
Location: Southern CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might help to know the subject on the film. Was the subject scientific? Large-format film was used for process shots.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camz wrote:
It might help to know the subject on the film. Was the subject scientific? Large-format film was used for process shots.


The subject was a USAF Titan I ICBM test launch at Cape Canaveral
1960-1961. I did not see any way to upload the image so as to illustrate
the film appearance.
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthur LeBrun wrote:

The subject was a USAF Titan I ICBM test launch at Cape Canaveral
1960-1961.


Well, in that case, the camera IS rocket science.

Seriously though, the NASA had access to technology and budgets magnitudes beyond the largest Hollywood studios - chances are that a classified spy grade recon camera was involved.

Sevo
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sevo wrote:
Arthur LeBrun wrote:

The subject was a USAF Titan I ICBM test launch at Cape Canaveral
1960-1961.


Well, in that case, the camera IS rocket science.

Seriously though, the NASA had access to technology and budgets magnitudes beyond the largest Hollywood studios - chances are that a classified spy grade recon camera was involved.

Sevo


In those days I suspect lots of standard equipment was used since
aerial recon cameras in large format were available. I know there
were 4 x 5 cameras (sequential?) in quartz housings, single shot 4 x 5 Speed Graphics in groups and high speed 70mm Hulchers plus who
knows what else for engineering data. Spy satellite recon cameras were in their infancy and a different design although any advances they had might have been used in missile photography. Still have much to learn!
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