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shutter options for using bulbs

 
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ASpeedGraphic



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I've got a '53 Speed 45 model with an Ektar 5" lens in a Supermatic (X) shutter. I've got the thing working great with my Sunpak handle mount flash w/ a wide angle attachment, but I also have a large supply of flashbulbs that I'd like to start using for certain things, so I would like to get an M sych shutter for the camera. Ideally I would be able to switch between X and M synch, but that's not an absolute requirement. I also calibrated the rangefinder according to the instructons on this site, and it is nice and accurate with this lens. I can recalibrate the rangefinder for a different lens fairly quickly now, but would like to see what my options are with my current lens before doing so.

A few questions:

1. What are my shutter options for this lens? Is there a shutter that will let me switch between X and M synchs? Will this lens fit brand new Compur shutters?

2. Can I use flashbulbs with X synch at all? I know I can probably get something at lower shutter speeds, but exactly how low do I have to go to pull it off?

3. What are my flash options with the rear shutter? '30 or below? Can I synch it with electronic flash, or only bulbs? Haven't used this shutter yet, but would like to give it a whirl.

I ask on here because I am not too fond of burning through Polaroid at about $3 a sheet. I have also done some reading and can't quite find the exact answers I'm looking for.

Thanks for the help,

Keith
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3258
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A few questions:

1. What are my shutter options for this lens? Is there a shutter that will let me switch between X and M synchs? Will this lens fit brand new Compur shutters?

2. Can I use flashbulbs with X synch at all? I know I can probably get something at lower shutter speeds, but exactly how low do I have to go to pull it off?

3. What are my flash options with the rear shutter? '30 or below? Can I synch it with electronic flash, or only bulbs? Haven't used this shutter yet, but would like to give it a whirl.


1: don't know.
2: X sync triggers at the instant the shutter blades are at full open, the 30 milli seconds it takes a bulb to reach peak will mean that you won't get more than 1/3 of the light output on the subject before the shutter closes at a speed faster than 1/2 second (roughly).
3:The rear shutter will work fine at any speed with FP flashbulbs only.

4. Get a 1).Graflite (before it becomes a ********{stir where} prop and provokes some anal responces), 2). Graflite 2 cell 2772 or 3 cell 2773, 3). Heland, kalart, ect. flash; mount a solenoid to your lens board and adjust according to selonid adjustment procedure and trip the shutter and fire the flash bulb via the flash handle and use whatever shutter speed you desire. The Graflite user manual is available at http://www.southbristolviews.com/. This solution is slimpler than it sounds.
Charles

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[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2006-07-25 18:04 ]
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ImageMaker



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 93
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2: X sync triggers at the instant the shutter blades are at full open, the 30 milli seconds it takes a bulb to reach peak will mean that you won't get more than 1/3 of the light output on the subject before the shutter closes at a speed faster than 1/2 second (roughly).


Okay, very minor nit picking here:

The ignition delay for M type bulbs is more like 20 ms than 30 (typical is 22 ms, IIRC), and they work perfectly well with X synch leaf shutters providing the speed is slow enough that the shutter stays open through a substantial fraction of the burn. If you have a guide number chart that covers faster shutter speeds, you can get quite a lot of use out of this combination; for instance, if you set the shutter to 1/25, you'll get the first 20 ms of the bulb's burn time, equal to an M synch speed of 1/50 (though X synch speed of 1/50 or faster will result in a dimly lit or unlit image, because the shutter will close before the bulb reaches its peak, or even before it starts to shine significantly at all). Set the X shutter to 1/15 (67 ms, near enough) and you'll get the entire burn, just as you would with M at 1/30 (though you'll have increased issues with camera movement recording light sources and reflections in frame during the shutter "drag" -- this is mainly a tripod technique).

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clnfrd



Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 616
Location: Western Kentucky Lakes Area

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 1/25th of a second 40 ms? Therefore, if the lamp is ignited at the instant the shutter is wide open (that's the way my x-synch shutters work), then you'll have 40ms of burn time, 18ms past the 22 ms peak of an M lamp using a shutter speed of 1/25th. Fred.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the techanical clarification as I was onlt trying to give the generality of what to expect.
Charles

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ASpeedGraphic



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Thanks, Charles.

I have a 3 cell flash, a 5" reflector, and a solenoid. In fact, I always use the button on my flash handle to trip the shutter. I mount the flash (without the reflector) at all times for this reason, and to give me a good grip. Are you saying that I can fine tune my solenoid to provide enough delay to use flashbulbs with an X synch shutter at any shutter speed? If so, this would be great news because I don't need to buy something new or adapt anything else to my camera.

I have Press 25 and GE #5 bulbs. I shoot Ilford Delta 400 and sometimes FP4. I use these because I already know my ASAs and tone controls with them from shooting topography and architecture with monorail cameras, but I am going to try using Delta 100 in the Speed with bulbs. Delta 400 is outstanding with electronic flash, but I have always wanted to use Delta 100, and now is a good time with this camera and bulbs.

Then there's good old Tri-X brought down 40%. I have found it's the only way I like Tri-X. Every teacher in the world must force students to learn on that film...so I learned to despise it early on, but I am starting to appreciate the Tri-X look now.

Babble babble

Keith
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3258
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith,
Yes that old La Salle you've been driving is better than that Cadillac you thought you needed. Refer to the Italic Link in the previous post, adjust and shoot away!

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[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2006-07-27 17:32 ]
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ImageMaker



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 93
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2006-07-26 14:50, clnfrd wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 1/25th of a second 40 ms? Therefore, if the lamp is ignited at the instant the shutter is wide open (that's the way my x-synch shutters work), then you'll have 40ms of burn time, 18ms past the 22 ms peak of an M lamp using a shutter speed of 1/25th. Fred.


Okay, yes, technically the bulb is burning for part of the 22 ms ignition delay, since that's measured to peak brightness -- but the M type flash curve is such that there's effectively no light (more than 2 stops below maximum) for the first 10 ms of that time, and you're past 15 ms before you're within one stop of peak. The decay side is much slower than the rise, if you count the rise from when the bulb starts to emit light (of the 22 ms, the first 6-8 is completely dark, no significant emission at all).

It's probably adequate to simply use the "1/30 or slower" guide number with X synch of 1/15 or slower (since most X synch shutters have modern speed progression); you want a minimum of 30 ms open time after the peak to use that guide number -- but you do have to watch for bright light sources or reflections in frame, as noted previously.

Better solution, if you have one, is to use the solenoid synchronizer. Works with old unsynchronized shutters, with X shutters, and even with M-synch shutters. Someday I'll get one of those for my Speed...

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ASpeedGraphic



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Charles.

I got it done, and will be shooting a live concert tomorrow night to test.

Keith
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clnfrd



Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 616
Location: Western Kentucky Lakes Area

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can talk theory about the characteristics of various shutters 'til Heck freezes over. The thing to do, as always, is shoot some film and arrive at your own conclusions with valid tests, not conjecture. My X-synch shutters will work with flash bulbs at 1/25th using standard guide numbers. Fred.
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ImageMaker



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 93
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2006-07-28 04:31, clnfrd wrote:
We can talk theory about the characteristics of various shutters 'til Heck freezes over. The thing to do, as always, is shoot some film and arrive at your own conclusions with valid tests, not conjecture. My X-synch shutters will work with flash bulbs at 1/25th using standard guide numbers. Fred.


If you have enough volts/amps available to get very prompt ignition, that's usually the case; you're cutting off a bit of the tail, but it's only 5% of the total light, if even that much. However, that depends strongly on the actual speed of your 1/25. As you say, an actual test with actual film is best, though it's painful to burn the bulbs on test subjects...

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[ This Message was edited by: ImageMaker on 2006-07-28 12:30 ]
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