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Using Pacemaker infinity stops on 2x3 Miniature Graphic

 
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miket-nyc



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
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Location: NYC

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Using Pacemaker infinity stops on 2x3 Miniature Graphic Reply with quote

I recently got a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Miniature Speed Graphic. I'd like to use other lenses on it, but the fixed infinity stops block a large part of the track. Is it possible to use Pacemaker folding infinity stops on these cameras? I know you can use them on 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Pacemakers, but I don't know whether these earlier small cameras have the same kind of track.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it possible to use Pacemaker folding infinity stops on these cameras?

No. Pacemaker series use a different yoke, it has a slot alongside the rails that the infinity stops slide into. The Anniversary/Miniature Speed do not have the slot.

(yoke is Graflex speak for rails)
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miket-nyc



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
Posts: 39
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
Quote:
Is it possible to use Pacemaker folding infinity stops on these cameras?

No. Pacemaker series use a different yoke, it has a slot alongside the rails that the infinity stops slide into. The Anniversary/Miniature Speed do not have the slot.

(yoke is Graflex speak for rails)


Thanks, but that leads to a second question: if I got a Pacemaker yoke, could I use it on my Mini? Pacemaker parts occasionally come up on eBay.
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45PSS



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know. I think the Pacemaker yoke is wider with the yoke guides narrower than the same parts on the Anniversary/Miniature. I do not know if the guides from the Pacemaker will align with the mount holes on the Anny/Miniature or if the beds will interchange.
I have a Miniature Speed and a Pre Anniversary 4x5 but no pacemaker to measure.

EDIT:
My Super Graphic (1964) rails are 3.648 inch wide at the guide edges.
My Pre Anniversary (1936) 4x5 Speed Graphic rails are 3.06 inch wide at the guide rails.

Being 2x3 cameras are downsized versions of their larger siblings its likely the Pacemaker rails can be made to fit with a little machining.
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William Hallett



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have both a 2x3 Pacemaker and a Miniature Speed. The Pacemaker yoke is about 3/8" wider. The profiles of the rails appear similar, so you could probably move the rails out enough to accommodate the Pacemaker yoke. However, there is less distance between the blocks under the rails on the Mini, so that the rack underneath the Pacemaker yoke would probably foul the blocks and you would have to mill them out. Major surgery! Also, you would not be able to use the section of the Pacemaker yoke that sits in the body, because the Mini has a different construction here with fixed rails.

Conclusion: if you want folding track stops, buy a Pacemaker or a Century.
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miket-nyc



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
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Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

William Hallett wrote:
I have both a 2x3 Pacemaker and a Miniature Speed. The Pacemaker yoke is about 3/8" wider. The profiles of the rails appear similar, so you could probably move the rails out enough to accommodate the Pacemaker yoke. However, there is less distance between the blocks under the rails on the Mini, so that the rack underneath the Pacemaker yoke would probably foul the blocks and you would have to mill them out. Major surgery! Also, you would not be able to use the section of the Pacemaker yoke that sits in the body, because the Mini has a different construction here with fixed rails.

Conclusion: if you want folding track stops, buy a Pacemaker or a Century.


Thank you for this very detailed answer. It sounds like what I'm thinking of would be possible, but not especially practical, even though I have machining facilities. I'd like to use more than one lens on my Mini, but I think an alternative solution would be easier -- make some kind of spacer to go between the infinity stop and the front standard to establish the infinity distance.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket-nyc wrote:
I think an alternative solution would be easier -- make some kind of spacer to go between the infinity stop and the front standard to establish the infinity distance.


I think I suggested this already. FWIW, I do just that with my 2x3 Pacemakers, but with a twist. The spacer is movable so can be used with any lens. For details, see http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf . See p. 39 for a picture of one, search the text for chinaman and spacer to find explanations.
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miket-nyc



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Fromm wrote:
miket-nyc wrote:
I think an alternative solution would be easier -- make some kind of spacer to go between the infinity stop and the front standard to establish the infinity distance.


I think I suggested this already. FWIW, I do just that with my 2x3 Pacemakers, but with a twist. The spacer is movable so can be used with any lens. For details, see http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf . See p. 39 for a picture of one, search the text for chinaman and spacer to find explanations.


Fascinating article, and I liked the design for the spacer (though why anyone would call an infinity stop spacer a "Chinaman" is weird, and kind of racist). Not sure why the author did this project. He finds a huge number of often very obscure lenses from 35mm and other formats that he's adapted to fit a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Speed Graphic, but he seems more interested in getting the largest number he can find rather than actually using them. (His optical standards were "to sort lenses into 'good enough' and 'not good enough' rather than 'to determine which lens is in any sense best.'" I'm more interested in having a few lenses and getting good ones).

I also want lenses that are practical focal lengths to use on the camera. That rules out two lenses I already have. I have several telephoto lenses for 35mm rangefinder cameras, and these were normally designed so you could unscrew the lens head and attach it to a reflex housing. I tried two of them on my Miniature Graphic, an 85/1.9 Komura and a 135/3.5 Canon, but neither is particularly practical.

The Komura covers at least 2 1/4 square, but it only reaches infinity on the part of the track that's in the body, and on the Miniature Graphic that part doesn't move, so there's no way to focus it. The 135mm Canon is impractical for another reason. These are readily available on eBay and they're quite affordable. (see https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-135mm-f3-5-rangefinder-lens-for-Leica-screw-mount-LTM-L39/173178971258?hash=item285245647a:g:iMIAAOSw3HxaklGB ). And lens head reaches infinity nicely on the focusing part of the track, and it even goes into the same hole on a standard lens board as the normal lens. But I already own a 127/4.5 Rodenstock Ysarex in a Prontor shutter, so a lens 8 mm longer (that's way too big to close the camera on) doesn't seem worth the trouble.

But I also have a 2 1/4 square Pentacon Six SLR, and it has a VERY promising lens, a 50/4 Carl Zeiss Flektogon. This is a moderate wide-angle on 2 1/4 square, but my crude test shows it covers 2 1/4 x 3 1/4. Like the Komura, it only focuses to infinity with the lens on on the back part of the track, so it would be better on a Pacemaker, but it has a focusing mount, so I could leave it on the back part of the track, focus with the rangefinder and transfer the numbers to the Flektogon's focusing mount. This lens is large , but not particularly heavy, and it's a retrofocus design for an SLR, so you don't need to drop the bed.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, about the word Chinaman, that came from Fred Lustig who insisted that it was used by press photographers who had Speed Graphics.

As for why so many lenses, well, they were inexpensive and until I tested them I had no idea which were really usable. Not only that, when I was acquiring and testing buying low there (dealers' sites, camera shows, foreign ebays etc. and sometimes even ebay.com) and selling higher here (ebay.com) was much easier than it is now. Harmless somewhat profitable fun and I ended up with a useful set of quite good lenses.

Re adaptation. The only lens for 35 mm still that I tried out -- very belatedly -- was a 55/2.8 MicroNikkor AIS. All of the others were for 6x6 (a couple of the enlarging lenses and a $10 75/2.8 mystery lens) and larger formats. There really aren't that many lenses for 2x3, most lenses that cover 2x3 also cover larger formats.

Good luck with y'r 50 Flektogon. FWIW, I bought my 1 3/4" Elcan after playing with one my friend Charlie Barringer (google him) had stuffed into the front of his Mini Speed. The images it put on the GG convinced both of us that it would do for 2x3. I shot mine for test. The results proved that it doesn't even illuminate all of 2x3. So be cautious about drawing conclusions about coverage from what you see on the GG.

100 mm is the normal focal length for 2x3. The two tele lenses you mentioned are, respectively, somewhat wide angle for 2x3 and slightly long normal for 3x4. If you want an 80 mm +/- lens, look for an 80/6.3 WF Ektar. There are many affordable 135s of many vintages and design types that will work well on a Mini. Xenar, Tessar, any number of plasmat types.

As I've already said, if you want the joy of tinkering, go for it. There's no disputing tastes.
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Dan Fromm



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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, I neglected to mention that telephoto lenses are narrow angle lenses. Subject to testing, I think you're optimistic about y'r 85/1.9 Komura's and 135/3.5 Canon's coverage.
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miket-nyc



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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Fromm wrote:
Um, I neglected to mention that telephoto lenses are narrow angle lenses. Subject to testing, I think you're optimistic about y'r 85/1.9 Komura's and 135/3.5 Canon's coverage.


You may be right. My "testing" involved holding the lens up to the front standard and pointing it out the window. The Komura barely covered 2 1/4 square, but the Canon seemed to cover to the corners of the ground glass. But Canon would have no need to optimize the quality of a telephoto lens for anything bigger than 35mm, so the rest of the field may be crappy.

Anyway, I lost interest in the Canon because 135 isn't so much longer than the normal lens that it's worth doing. I have a ~12" Hugo Meyer Goerlitz Doppel Anastigmat in a big Compur shutter to play with if I want a long telephoto.

But the lens I'm excited about for wide angle on a Graphic is my 50/4 Flektagon. It was designed to cover 2 1/4 square and seems to cover 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 easily. I have a second Pentacon Six body (an unrepairable junker) and I'm going to graft its lens mount onto a Graphic lensboard. Then I can use (or at least mount) any of their lenses. BTW, if you like experimenting, Soviet Bloc lenses for Pentacon, Exakta, etc., are sometimes amazingly cheap, even the Zeiss ones. I have an Arsat C 250mm f/3.5 Russian telephoto that cost $40 brand new.
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Dan Fromm



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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket-nyc wrote:


Anyway, I lost interest in the Canon because 135 isn't so much longer than the normal lens that it's worth doing. I have a ~12" Hugo Meyer Goerlitz Doppel Anastigmat in a big Compur shutter to play with if I want a long telephoto.

... BTW, if you like experimenting, Soviet Bloc lenses for Pentacon, Exakta, etc., are sometimes amazingly cheap, even the Zeiss ones. I have an Arsat C 250mm f/3.5 Russian telephoto that cost $40 brand new.


Hmm. Long focal length doesn't mean telephoto. A telephoto lens has shorter back focus than a lens of normal construction of the same focal length.

The Mini's maximum extension is 9". Doppel Anastigmats (many makers, many design types, many trade names) are of normal construction. Your Mini can't focus a 12 incher to infinity, let alone closer, without heroic measures.

It should focus a 12"/4 TTH Telephoto -- my 2x3 Pacemaker Speed does -- to infinity but since the lens makes infinity with the front standard inside the box focusing it on a Mini will be a pain. Uncommon lens, now quite expensive. Mine was merely expensive, wheeling and dealing paid for it.

The longest original issue lens for 2x3 Graphics is the 10"/5.6 Wollensak telephoto sold as TeleRaptar (Wollensak's trade name) and TeleOptar (Graflex' trade name).

I'm pretty much done experimenting with lenses. I have the kit I need and won't get much benefit from adding short lenses from the east bloc.
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miket-nyc



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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Fromm wrote:
miket-nyc wrote:


Anyway, I lost interest in the Canon because 135 isn't so much longer than the normal lens that it's worth doing. I have a ~12" Hugo Meyer Goerlitz Doppel Anastigmat in a big Compur shutter to play with if I want a long telephoto.

... BTW, if you like experimenting, Soviet Bloc lenses for Pentacon, Exakta, etc., are sometimes amazingly cheap, even the Zeiss ones. I have an Arsat C 250mm f/3.5 Russian telephoto that cost $40 brand new.


Hmm. Long focal length doesn't mean telephoto. A telephoto lens has shorter back focus than a lens of normal construction of the same focal length.

The Mini's maximum extension is 9". Doppel Anastigmats (many makers, many design types, many trade names) are of normal construction. Your Mini can't focus a 12 incher to infinity, let alone closer, without heroic measures.

It should focus a 12"/4 TTH Telephoto -- my 2x3 Pacemaker Speed does -- to infinity but since the lens makes infinity with the front standard inside the box focusing it on a Mini will be a pain. Uncommon lens, now quite expensive. Mine was merely expensive, wheeling and dealing paid for it.

The longest original issue lens for 2x3 Graphics is the 10"/5.6 Wollensak telephoto sold as TeleRaptar (Wollensak's trade name) and TeleOptar (Graflex' trade name).

I'm pretty much done experimenting with lenses. I have the kit I need and won't get much benefit from adding short lenses from the east bloc.


Well, I don't have anything but near-normal lenses at this point and my favorite lenses in recent years have been wide angle. (My favorite in 35mm is a 28). So I'm hoping to find something similar for the larger format without spending $$$.
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Dan Fromm



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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket-nyc wrote:


Well, I don't have anything but near-normal lenses at this point and my favorite lenses in recent years have been wide angle. (My favorite in 35mm is a 2. So I'm hoping to find something similar for the larger format without spending $$$.


Go here http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138978-Where-to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses for a heap of links to information on LF lenses and other equipment. It has useful links for Graflex gear, including Graphics, and one to my list of short lenses (up to 65 mm) that cover at least 2x3. A 65 on 2x3 is equivalent to a 28 on 24x36.

Short lenses for 2x3 and larger formats tend to be expensive but there are still relative bargains. Keep on looking and be patient.
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