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RH-10 film back only is giving 9 images
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dstoenner



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
Posts: 29
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:18 pm    Post subject: RH-10 film back only is giving 9 images Reply with quote

I have gotten back into my crown graphics and been playing with my 2x3. I have added to my equipment a RH-10 back. My older back was RH-8 knob wind but like the lever wind. I load my film and wind up the leader to the start arrow, then click the dial to "S" and close it up and start winding till I get to 1. When I get my film back I see that the fist frame is advanced into the roll to about 2 out of 16 I also see that the spacing is not even as it advances across the roll. There is no part of the 10th frame on the negative.

Any ideas on this? Sort of baffled. The only experiment that I can come up with is to take 10 frames, ask them to not cut any of the roll up and see what I have.

David
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a thread on APUG large format fourm about the same problem.
The RH10 was a recent purchase from ebay and the holder was returned.

With the holder set to S, back open, hold the wind key or insert an empty spool and hold it while operating the advance lever. The advance lever should not move and excessive force will strip the wind key. If the wind lever operates with little or no force the wind key is stripped. The holder likely needs a CLA also.

See: http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6391
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Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1555
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had unequal spacing problems on my RH10 roll holders too, though not the wasted initial space described by dstoenner. I always specify "do not cut negative" to my processor, thus avoiding the problem of cutting across images. BTW, I always shoot chromogenic B/W (Ilford XP2 super), which develops in standard C-41 (color negative) chemistry, and have the photo store process my film. I'll follow this routine for as long as I can get the film and the processing!
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dstoenner



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
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Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the insights. I have 2 of these RH-10 backs. Both levers snap back after you let them go from an advance so I am not for sure they need a lub and clean. One RH-10 is a singer graflex back and the other is just a graflex back so they are separated by age quite a bit.

So I took the inserts out and did an experiment to see if one was different than the other. Using a flat on the empty film spool as a zero position I moved both inserts to S and compared each advance one at a time on the 2. It took 8 and 5/8 revs for the old back and 8 and 3/4 revs for the new back to reach index 1. Then I tripped each off and they hung together by the 1/8 rev all the way to 10 I also noted that sometimes the amount that each moved at each index from 1 to 10 did seem to change. I would have expected each to be a little less each index because the film on the spool would be increasing in diameter. That seemed to be the case in general.

I am still as confused as ever. I think now I will have to do the experiment of taking a series of shoots and getting the film developed and getting it not cut and seeing what the results look like.

Henry,

I have found the XP2 also and bought a few roils to compare it against HP5+. My first test seem to show that they are very similar. Being C41 lets me get it developed locally rather than having to have it sent off. This may become my film of choice.

Thanks

David
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Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstoenner wrote:
Thanks for the insights. I have 2 of these RH-10 backs. Both levers snap back after you let them go from an advance so I am not for sure they need a lub and clean. One RH-10 is a singer graflex back and the other is just a graflex back so they are separated by age quite a bit.

So I took the inserts out and did an experiment to see if one was different than the other. Using a flat on the empty film spool as a zero position I moved both inserts to S and compared each advance one at a time on the 2. It took 8 and 5/8 revs for the old back and 8 and 3/4 revs for the new back to reach index 1. Then I tripped each off and they hung together by the 1/8 rev all the way to 10 I also noted that sometimes the amount that each moved at each index from 1 to 10 did seem to change. I would have expected each to be a little less each index because the film on the spool would be increasing in diameter. That seemed to be the case in general.

I am still as confused as ever. I think now I will have to do the experiment of taking a series of shoots and getting the film developed and getting it not cut and seeing what the results look like.

Henry,

I have found the XP2 also and bought a few roils to compare it against HP5+. My first test seem to show that they are very similar. Being C41 lets me get it developed locally rather than having to have it sent off. This may become my film of choice.

Thanks

David


I have always assumed, probably rashly, that the Graflex wizards took into account the changing diameter of the feed roll by somehow compensating with the gearing mechanism. Maybe not. Anyhow, I have found that inconsistency is the name of the game with these roll holders. But it sure beats loading sheet film, IMO.

FYI, I find that exposing the XP2 Super at ISO 100 rather than the nominal 400 gives a denser negative and better contrast. That's a two-stop or one-fourth shutter speed difference. Exposure at 400 gives me thin negatives that don't scan or print well with my set-up (Epson V700 scanner, R2880 printer), but YRMV!

Carolina grad here; go Tar Heels!
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you hold the wind key/takeup spool stationary and try to operate the wind?
Current films are .00035inch/35mil thick for Fuji, .0004inch/4mil thick for Kodak and Ilford. This is .0005 inch/.5 mil thinner than older films from the same companies. When thinner film base was put into use film holders were retooled to account for the thinner film. Increasing the diameter of the takeup roller causes more film to move past image gate per wind as the film is advanced. 1 to 2 layers of backing paper taped to the takeup roller will do the trick. This moves .5mm - .75mm more film past the image gate giving the extra space between frames to prevent edge touching/overlapping.

The wind pinion has the advance lever/knob on one end and the wind key on the other. The wind key mates into the takeup spool's slots. The wind key is soft metal that strips easily with an increase in turning force. Some may fail from metal fatigue due to age.
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dstoenner



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
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Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry,

Thanks for the tip on XP2 at ISO 100. I will try it again. I had thought the negatives looked a little thin but had no experience to go by on this. I am now looking at getting a scanner. I also need to scan a whole boat load of negatives of the kids when they were young so I can dispose of those and not take up space. I was considering the the same epson scanner as it does both 120 and 35 film. What kind of resolution do you can your 120 negatives?

I am a transplant from Missouri via a 24 year stint in California. So for me it is Missouri University, Columbia. BSEE 1970

45PSS,

I will try putting some tension on the take up spool and see what results I get. I would think the paper thickness would dominate the equation for seeing how the film is being spaced. I don't have an issue with negative frames touching. What i have is that basically the first frame is where the second frame should be. So it is taking up too much leader not enough.

David
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Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scanner will go as high as 6400 dpi, if not higher, on B/W negatives, if you have the time! And, of course, it depends on how large a print you are going to make. It will scan up to 8x10 negatives, but I typically scan 6x7 (cm) negs from the roll film, though I have scanned all sizes up to and including 8x10. I don't use the Epson scanner software (driver), but a product called VueScan, which I highly recommend! It also operates my dedicated 35 mm scanner, the Minolta Dimage Scan Dual IV (no longer made). The Epson V700 is not a practical 35 mm scanner, in my experience; it's too slow, and results don't come up to the quality of the Minolta. Find info on VueScan here: http://www.hamrick.com/. I'm operating Mac OS X Snow Leopard v. 10.6.8 (I know, I know, it's out of date, but so what? I don't have the inclination or the patience, or indeed the necessity, to upgrade since it means upgrading my printer driver and goodness knows what else, and generally would disrupt my carefully practiced and comfortable routine, so the heck with it.) I did buy the "professional" version of VueScan, which allows for free downloading of revisions, as issued.

Last edited by Henry on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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45PSS



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.flickr.com/gp/thirteenthumbs/q991Y2
Index 26 controls when lockout index 18 engages. The distance between the outside edge of the supply side and take up rollers determines how much film is moved across per advance. The frame count of the holder determines the number of notches in index 26. Dirty, dry gears do not advance the film properly.

Someone may have had the holder apart and assembled it incorrectly also.
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dstoenner



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS,

You are a wealth of information. Thanks. I guess now I will disassemble one and see if I see something amiss. If not then I guess it is what it is as they say. The big issue is just to know what quirks it has and then work around them. But if I can fix something, I am all up for that.

David
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45PSS



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check your private messages.
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dstoenner



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:43 pm    Post subject: Some results Reply with quote

Well with the instructions I got from Charles I took one of my inserts apart enough to watch the gears and levers and check on the springs to make sure they were all in place. they all were but while I had it apart I took the opportunity to oil and grease it up.

I left my other insert as it was so I could compare the 2 units. I also wanted to test my 101 Raptar against a just acquired 101 Ektar. My lens test was to shoot 400/F8, 200/F11...25/F32 on each lens. This gave me 10 exposures of the same scene. I then had it developed and asked that they not be cut.

So I picked up the rolls today. Funny thing, there were 10 exposed frames on each roll. The first insert that I had taken apart and cleaned oiled and greased no had the first frame closer to the beginning of the film strip. So the lab must have cut off the maybe half frame on the original roll and not included it in my return envelope. The other insert also had 10 frames but the first frame wasn't as close to the beginning so the 10 frame was just right at the end with no space afterwards.

Looks like taking it apart and cleaning and lubing it should make it work well also.

Moral of this story is don't trust the lab to give you everything back.

David
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Henry



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell your lab that "Do Not Cut Negative" means "DO NOT CUT NEGATIVE," and give them one more chance before you seek another lab---IF there's another one in your area. There's no excuse for that kind of sloppy work.
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dstoenner



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry wrote:
Tell your lab that "Do Not Cut Negative" means "DO NOT CUT NEGATIVE," and give them one more chance before you seek another lab---IF there's another one in your area. There's no excuse for that kind of sloppy work.


Henry,

It was actually you that gave me the idea to ask for them uncut. Until then I didn't make any specific requests. So I cannot blame the lab. At least now I know what is going on and I can look out from now on.

David
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dstoenner



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
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Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry wrote:
Tell your lab that "Do Not Cut Negative" means "DO NOT CUT NEGATIVE," and give them one more chance before you seek another lab---IF there's another one in your area. There's no excuse for that kind of sloppy work.


Henry,

It was actually you that gave me the idea to ask for them uncut. Until then I didn't make any specific requests. So I cannot blame the lab. At least now I know what is going on and I can look out from now on.

David
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