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Recommended film / workflow to learn the camera
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ktm_2000



Joined: 19 Jun 2019
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some roll film examples, if you ignore my skills at composition, there's plenty of resolution here.

here's some shots on tmax400
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bDz7iHJuDvqLgCwFA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/u4ezyhgbJjaQp4bSA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ah2KS5B4ok2jcRrk9

one on Ilford delta 400
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mM4uuwS9i17Wj5z59

[/img]
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financephotog



Joined: 18 Feb 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here's some roll film examples, if you ignore my skills at composition, there's plenty of resolution here.


Very nice! Yes, definitely good resoultion. So this is 120 film?

Besides resolution, though, I know from the cropped-sensor vs full-frame sensor discussion in digital that, it also makes a difference to the look of the image whether one uses more or less of the lens/focal plane area. But as of this point I am envisioning a hybrid strategy between 120 and 4x5, and I think I'll develop a feel for where this makes a difference.

BTW, am I reading the exif on those shots correctly that you're using a digital camera to scan them?

I'm thinking about doing that as well, at least to begin with.
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ktm_2000



Joined: 19 Jun 2019
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

those shots are all with a 4x5 and a 6x9 roll film back, I think of it as I am only recording the image from the sweet spot of the lens. I don't know if it changes the effect that large format can provide, others here are way more knowledgeable than I am.

I do most of my scanning of roll film with my sony a7II digital camera, I have a 80's era tokina 90mm macro and a canon macro bellows which I use to get 1:1. I found a HPG4050 scanner at a yard sale for $5 and I've done most of my 4x5 with that but it is incredibly infuriating as 1/2 the time the scanner will scan for 20 min and then at the end when it is supposed to transfer the file, the app will crash and I need to reboot and start over. The quality is decent when the scanner does work and I find that I can import the .jpg into Capture one and use my regular workflow.

When taking shots with the digital camera, I use capture one and invert the curve and then all the controls in capture one operate backwards but work fine.
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grat



Joined: 17 Feb 2021
Posts: 15
Location: Gainesville, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktm_2000 wrote:
those shots are all with a 4x5 and a 6x9 roll film back, I think of it as I am only recording the image from the sweet spot of the lens. I don't know if it changes the effect that large format can provide, others here are way more knowledgeable than I am.


Should be exactly the same as taking a sheet of 4x5, exposing it, and then cutting a 6x9 rectangle out of the middle. The coverage of the final image will be the same, but the depth-of-field, focus, and any effects from movements will be the same.
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financephotog



Joined: 18 Feb 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

ktm_2000 wrote:
those shots are all with a 4x5 and a 6x9 roll film back, I think of it as I am only recording the image from the sweet spot of the lens. I don't know if it changes the effect that large format can provide, others here are way more knowledgeable than I am.


Should be exactly the same as taking a sheet of 4x5, exposing it, and then cutting a 6x9 rectangle out of the middle. The coverage of the final image will be the same, but the depth-of-field, focus, and any effects from movements will be the same.


@grat: That's a very insightful comment and undoubtedly true. So logically that should apply to the full-frame vs cropped sensor discussion for DSLRs as well. Yet, common wisdom is that full-frame DSLRs have more pleasing qualities, such as better bokeh, compared to cropped-sensor cameras...

Then I guess the idea is the following: to get a certain shot using the full focal plane you have to be closer to your subject or shoot at a longer focal length, than for that same shot using a cropped portion of the focal plane. Must be that, which causes the differences in image quality. We know that closer focus distance or longer focal lengths reduce perceived depths of field, so voila... that's likely the argument.

Learn something new every day.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 4013
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So logically that should apply to the full-frame vs cropped sensor discussion for DSLRs as well.

Only if 2+2=3.
While a full frame and a cropped sensor may have the same pixel count the pixel in the full frame will be larger than the cropped sensor pixel. The full frame will produce larger, finer detailed images than the cropped sensor.
With film the coating process is the same so the silver halides/dye clouds in the film are the same size per film speed on all formats of that film speed/type.
If pixel size was standardized for all formats including cell phone cameras then such a comparison might be possible.
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grat



Joined: 17 Feb 2021
Posts: 15
Location: Gainesville, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
Quote:
So logically that should apply to the full-frame vs cropped sensor discussion for DSLRs as well.

Only if 2+2=3.
While a full frame and a cropped sensor may have the same pixel count the pixel in the full frame will be larger than the cropped sensor pixel. The full frame will produce larger, finer detailed images than the cropped sensor.


Or the crop sensor could have more pixels than the full-frame, so the full frame will capture more light per pixel, but less detail.

If the sensor in my DSLR were scaled up to FF, it would be something like 80 megapixels.
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ktm_2000



Joined: 19 Jun 2019
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is me trying to understand this and learn, please correct me where I am wrong.

my analogy of 120 film backs being just capturing the sweet spot is based upon the film being in the same position if roll back or 4x5 sheet film. The circle of area which the lens illuminates has to be the same.

There is a difference between the 2, it is the field of view. The roll film back captures less area.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge film coating was the same for all formats of a given film type and speed. The backing material for the different formats is different. 120 uses 3.5 mil to 4.5 mil (.0035 -.0045 inch) backing while 4x5 uses .007 inch.

With a roll film back on a larger format one is only using the central image area that matches the roll film back's image area. Whether that is the "sweet spot" or not depends on the lens's sharpness corner to corner.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2084
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktm_2000 wrote:
this is me trying to understand this and learn, please correct me where I am wrong.

my analogy of 120 film backs being just capturing the sweet spot is based upon the film being in the same position if roll back or 4x5 sheet film. The circle of area which the lens illuminates has to be the same.

There is a difference between the 2, it is the field of view. The roll film back captures less area.


The gates of most 2x3 roll holders that fit 4x5 cameras are centered on the camera's optical axis. The only exception I'm aware of is the 4x5 size Adapt-A-Roll 620, whose gate is offset ~ 7 mm towards the camera's back's insertion side.
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financephotog



Joined: 18 Feb 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little late chiming in, but @45PSS and @grat:

Good points there about pixel size vs film resolution. Super-interesting discussion!
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