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[Lobalobo]

Having purchased a Fujinon 125mm lens wiht a Copal 0 shutter to put on my Crown Graphic, I also purchased a Copal 0 lens board and a Copal 0 shutter flange. I was under the apparently false impression that all "Copal 0" components are the same. The front of the lens fits perfectly in the lens board and the flange mates perfectly to the front of the lens but because the flange extends out of the back the back of the lens just misses catching the threads to attach to the front. (Sorry if I'm butchering the terminology here, but I hope this is clear.) So I have to return the flange but don't want to make the same mistake again. Other than "Copal 0" what should I look for in the specifications for the flange so that I get one that is a flat ring rather than a tube. (Also, any advice on where to buy one is welcome.) Thanks in advance.

[45PSS]

Please Do Not return anything until this is resolved as you may not need to change anything but the mounting method. Look at this web page http://www.skgrimes.com/adapter/index.htm . Do you have a flange or ring? Will the flange or ring screw onto the shutter properly when neither are on a lens board? The flange mounts to the front a a lens board with screws and nuts on the back side of the lens board for thin boards for standard usage and the shutter screws into the flange once it is mounted to the board. Many times the shutter can be put to the lens board and the flange screwed onto the shutter fron the rear of the baord effectively making it a mount ring. A mount ring is thinner and has notches for tighting it with a lens spanner wrench. If you have a ring and it will not screw onto the shutter because of depth issues then try turning the ring around and see if it enguages the threads. Pacemaker boards are so thin that depth of thread issues should not be active. If the problem is that the ring will not tighten the shutter to the board then a shim or spacer can be added between the the ring and the rear of the board to take up the extra space. Post some pictures if necessary
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.

[disemjg]

Like 45PSS says, return nothing until your procedure is reviewed.

A flange will have several holes evenly spaced in the face for mounting to the front of the lens board. Small machine hardware is usually used to hold the flange to the lens board. I also sometimes use rivets to hold them together. Once the flange is mounted to the lens board, the lens is simply spun into it to complete the job. Watch the orientation of the flange when you mount it, especially if you use rivets. You want the lens to wind up with the scales and levers in the correct positions when screwed into the flange. Flanges are not typically used on lenses such as your Fujinon in Copal; they commonly use rings. Most flanges are not symmetrical, and they usually have a raised lip at the rear that has to fit into the hole in the lens board. They may also have a raised ring at the front, which serves to loft the mounted shutter clear of the flange face. While flanges are supposed to be used on the front of the lens board, as an expedient they can sometimes be used as a retaining ring although they may introduce clearance issues with the other parts of the mounting.

A retaining ring will have spanner slots (some old ones have small holes that serve the same purpose). It goes on from the back of the lens board. Rings may be flat or shouldered; if flat the hole in the lens board should just clear the threads on the shutter. If the ring is shouldered, the shoulder faces the board and the hole in the board is slightly larger than the shutter to allow the ring shoulder to fit into the hole. Once all the parts are dimensioned correctly, all you do is put the shutter in the hole, locate the post (see next) and run the ring down on the shutter, sandwiching the board between the base of the shutter and the ring. Tighten with a spanner.

Note that many shutters have small locating posts on their backs that are intended to keep the lens from rotating when mounted. If using a ring, there needs to be a corresponding hole or notch in the lens board to accommodate the post. If using a flange, the post frequently has to be removed from the shutter or it may interfere with the lens seating correctly.

Note also that Pacemaker lens boards are not square; they have a top/bottom.

BTW, when you ordered the lens why did you also get a flange? Shutters are expected to come WITH a retaining ring or a flange, and unless you knew that the lens was missing this part there would have been no reason to have to ask for one. Unless of course you really wanted to mount it using a flange instead of a ring. Which makes me wonder if the lens DOES have a retaining ring on it already, and you are trying to mount it with that still in place?? Stacking a ring and a flange could foul up the mounting process. Not wanting to insult you with that last one, but it sounds like you have not done this before and this oversight would not be out of the question for someone unfamiliar with the procedure.

So, for us to help, clarify what you have:

> do you have a ring or a flange?

> was there already a ring on the shutter?

> What does the hole in the lens board fit, the ring, the flange or the shutter?

> is there a locating post on the rear of the shutter?


John

[Les]

I"m not sure what the situation is, but "the front of the lens fits the flange perfectly" makes think that something is very much wrong.

since it's the back of the shutter than fits on the lensboard, rather than any front or back of lens, let's either remove the glass from the shutter or ignore that it's there.

Since it's a Crown Graphic you should have a metal lensboard, Wood lensboard won't work.

Others have described the differences between a flange and a retaining ring already so...

Without either retaining ring or flange on the threads of the shutter, can the shutter pass into the hole in the lensboard?

Can the flange/retaining ring thread on the back of the shutter?

If the hole in the board is too small or the retaining ring is the wrong size (it sounds like it's too small) then I would send them back, if you can measure the diameter of the threads on the shutter that would help, tell them the ring needs to be at least this size. In actuality, a Copal 0 hole should be 2-4mm too large for a No 0 Copal shutter. When sized properly, there is a recess or rebate on a retaining ring that fit the hole perfectly, thus keeping the threads from being damaged.
_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison

[Lobalobo]

Thanks for all the information and my apologies for the confusion in my terminology. I hadn't focused on the difference between a ring and a flange, but for reasons I'm about to explain I do have a better clue than it might seems. The camera came with a lens on a lensboard and I disassembled and reassembled that lens to see how everything fits together. The original lens attached to a lens board with a ring, one with no depth or shoulder. The depth or shoulder is the only difference between the lens ring I bought. (And I think it is a "ring" as there are openings for a spanner but no place for any nut or bolt; my guess is that the ring I bought was for a different sort of lensboard, one that is recessed, if that's the right word, because the way it fits onto a flat lens board leaves no reason for the spanner slots as you can just grab the ring and tighten it by hand.)

As for whether a ring came with the lens, I'll have to look more closely, but can't imagine that I could have missed it, as I did take the lens apart to attach (at least the front part) to the board. But I'll definitely look again.

Is it even possible that I've done everything right and that the ring is just the wrong kind? If so, what sort of specifications should I be looking for to get a simple, flat ring?

Thanks again.

[Dan Fromm]

Wolf(female)wolf(male), let's go back to the beginning since your latest response clarified nothing.

You bought a 125/something Fujinon in Copal 0 shutter, a board for your camera drilled for a #0 shutter, and a #0 "flange" (your word).

You say that the shutter goes on the board. Fine, wonderful. Does that mean that the rear (threaded externally) part of the shutter passes through the hole in your new board? If so, wonderful, the hole may be the right size.

You also say that you had to "take the lens apart to attach (at least the front part) to the board." Does this mean that the lens' rear cell is bigger than the hole in the board and that you had to remove it from the shutter to get the shutter on the board?

If you bought a 125/5.6 Fujinon CMW this will be the case. When you reply tell us which lens (spell it all out as I just did) you bought.

If that's the case, the next step is to screw the flange or retaining ring or whatever you have that you bought as fitting a #0 on to the back of the shutter. If it won't go (too small, too large), you have the wrong retaining ring or flange. If it won't go (seems to be the right size, threads won't engage) it or the back of the shutter is knackered and one part or the other's threads will have to be chased. If you're lucky.

I have no idea what you mean by "front part of the lens." But you did say that "the flange mates perfectly to the front of the lens." This is scary. Did you screw the front cell out of the shutter and attach the flange/ring to it? Or did you screw the rear cell out of the shutter and attach the flange/ring to the back of the shutter? The #0 spec says that the lens' cells should be threaded M29x0.5, the rear of the shutter should be threaded externally M32x0.5. If the ring/flange went on the back of the front cell it is the wrong size, end of discussion.

If you think finger tight is tight enough, you're probably nuts. In my limited experience, there's a good reason why retaining rings are threaded so that a spanner can be used to tighten them.

[Lobalobo]

Dan: You may well be trying to help, but if you reread your posting and consider the tone, you'll understand why I ask that I'd prefer you not offer to help any further.

In any case, yes, the rear part of the shutter passes through the board with a proper fit, and yes, the rear cell of the lens is bigger than the hole in the board. The ring tightens easily onto the externally threaded rear part of the shutter, but the ring is thick (more a tube than a ring) and this (barely) prevents reattaching the rear cell of the lens to rear of the shutter; the width of the ring keep the threads from meeting. The only problem with the setup is that the ring is too thick, and what I'm looking for is specifications for a thinner ring (as I didn't realize that I was ordering a thick ring this time).

As for hand tightening, without doubt I can tighten this ring more by hand than one could with a spanner. The ring is thick, which is the problem, and gives ample room to grip. It is not the case of a ring with the spanner slots flush against the board, where a spanner is necessary, as I know from experience having used a spanner to tighten the ring on the board of the original lens that came with the camera. (That ring is thin and offers no place finger tighten.) I know that this means, for the new lens, the ring I bought is not the right one for the camera, which is the very reason I asked for help.

If anyone other than Dan has any further advice for me, I'm happy to hear it. If others have no further advice, I appreciate the help offered so far. (And if the consensus is that Dan's tone was appropriate, then I'll leave this site for good, so you can all converse however you wish, but still thank all for the invaluable advice I've received so far.)

[45PSS]

Your last post cleared the mixture so I deleted the information that I was typing as you were typing as it was no longer revelant.
1. Take a large flat mil bastard file and dress the existing ring down so that it is flush with or just slightly below the end of the shutter threads when the ring is installed. A Dremel with a cutoff wheel could be used to take a larger amount of material off also. The threads of the ring may need to be dressed after tne modification.
2. Check with http://www.keh.com/onlinestore/home.aspx or http://www.mpex.com/index.htm? for a thinner ring and be sure to specify that the total thread thickness be less than __________ the measurement of your shutter's threaded section.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.

[Lobalobo]

Thanks 45PSS (and others who posted). That's what I need. I'll look for a new, flat ring. (I don't think I'll try to tackle cutting down the ring. It's not in front of me at the moment, but it's about half an inch too thick--from the threads a tube protrudes until there is a ring of wider diameter, where the slots for the spanner appear.)

[Dan Fromm]

Wolfie, one of the problems with helping beginners is that they don't know enough to explain their problems clearly. I grilled you to elict the information needed to solve your problem.

I'm sorry you don't like my tone, but I read your initial question and subsequent responses as uninformative above and beyond ... I did ask the right questions. They did get you to explain your difficulty clearly enough to make the answer obvious. If you want sweetness, buy a lollipop.

You've finally explained your problem clearly enough to make it clear that you bought the wrong part. Exchange the #0 flange for a #0 retaining ring. There's no point in your attacking it with a file or hacksaw. Flanges are typically more expensive than retaining rings. You might get a little money back on the exchange.

Yes, you're right, I respond negatively to cutesy screen names. I've yet to see one that would pass the red face test.

[BrianShaw]

"(And if the consensus is that Dan's tone was appropriate, then I'll leave this site for good, so you can all converse however you wish, but still thank all for the invaluable advice I've received so far.)"

Gee, I thought Dan was being quite patient and trying very much to be helpful.

No good deed goes unpunished!

[C. Henry]

Let us all remember that the purpose of Help Board is to provide help for those who ask, NOT TO BE A MEANS OF DELIVERING "PUT DOWNS" to those who do not use the exact terminology that is expected.
In my opinion Dan Fromm is one of the most knowledgeable of those who post here, but he has an unfortunate talent for wording some of his replies in a way that appears to be saying "you're stupid" between the lines!
We do not need to be attacking "beginners" or those with "cutesy screen names"
Lobalobo, check your Private Messages.

C. Henry