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woodplane · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Chicago

I just got a new-to-me Ektar 100mm WF lens in a Flash Supermatic shutter. There is not a scratch on it, but it does have a few defects. Most notable is the the small air bubble near the outside edge of the rear element. It is about 1/3mm in diameter, and about 1/5 in from the edge. I suppose I could be sneaky and set it above the short dimension of the film, but that won't help the light scattered from it, only the shadow cast by it. How do such things get past quality control? The inner surface of each cell has a small amount of what looks like very fine metallic flakes, presumable from the shutter. I've seen this in a Graphex shutter too. The shutter seems fine on all but B and T, where it sounds more like 1/10 second.

Should I try to return it? I'm torn between excitement and dissapointment. I doubt the bubble with result in any visible degredation. The shutter will need a CLA, which may take care of the flakes and the B/T issues. So I'm tending toward keeping it.

RichS · Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:55 am Post subject:

I would do a search for lens and bubbles...

It actually means it's a quality lens and you would find most quality lenses of the era have small bubbles in them. Don't worry about that...

The small metallic flakes? Without seeing it or a better description, it sounds just like someone lubricated the shutter with a grafite dusting and didn't bother cleaning the elements afterwards. I would unscrew the cells and clean them, then see what happens. Flakes from the shutter itself would be a rather rare and probably noticible thing...

Any WF Ektar in decent shape is worth keeping...

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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

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t.r.sanford · Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject:

...in fact, it is said that, in the years between the wars, manufacturers of cheap lenses sometimes deliberately introduced little bubbles into the glass, to make them look like expensive lenses!

woodplane · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Chicago

I'd love to read some articles about bubbles in high-quality lenses. Can you post some URLs or books?

Why would the second-rate manufacturer's need to add air bubbles? Would they all have been plagued with the same problems?

Dan Fromm · Joined: 14 May 2001 Posts: 2146 Location: New Jersey

45PSS · Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:30 am Post subject:

an air bubble 2mm in diamater in the center of either element will not affect image quality.

[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2005-12-30 22:40 ]

woodplane · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Chicago

Verdict is: I'l keep it. At 6 lenses, it's time to stop shopping and start shooting! Last night it snowed silly here in Chicago, so I was out taking B&W's of snow on pine trees. I used my 15" Tele Optar and the 161mm Kodak Anastigmat, but didn't find an opportunity for the 100mm WF. I also mean to test the lenses on film (see my other thread) before I commit too many images. Maybe then I'll find I need to go back to ebay to get those late model Schneiders or Nikkors.

woodplane · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Chicago

I guess I am a little confused about the Supermatic shutters. Is there a manual online I can read?

I have a 127mm ektar that will not properly fire the slow (red) speeds unless I also cock the other lever near the flash bipost. The shutter on the 100mm WF works without cocking that lever, but will not work at B or T. Is this a common problem and should it be fixed to prevent some general degredation, or should it be worked around by using the preview and a lens cap for those long exposures?

45PSS · Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:24 am Post subject:

Clean, Lube, Adjust if you want it to work correctly. Lever next to bi post is for flash sync, flash will not fire if not cocked, should not interfere with shuttes speeds.

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The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.

troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

A Supermatic shutter like the one your 127mm Ektar is mounted on are ussually found in four basic models based on the No.2 size body.
*The No.2 Supermatic with self-timer retard mechanism set after cocking shutter (genrally set for ten seconds)
*The Flash-Supermatic with selective synch, engaged by cocking synch after cocking shutter. And select made by loosening lock screw and sliding to F or M setting.
*Supermatic (X) this is a simple X synch shutter with no auxilary cocking mechanism.
*Kodak also made another shutter that, while bearing one of the model labels listed above, are genrally easier to come by, esspecially thru popular internet auction sites. These are the Super-Problematic. How they came to be so widely distributed no one has yet figured out, but one thing has been figured out by trial and error, none of them function the same. It seems these have springs and levers that opperate or are located in different places inside the shutter that are not covered in any known repair service manuals. There are a couple theories about these seemingly popualar, and often unique shutters. One is that they were originally put on the market with rejected and pre-scrathced glass as means to offer the stagnant photographer a more challenging and creative experience (sort like today's Holga). A second theory is that Problematics were being assembled by cottage industry labor who had received master assembly procedural documents for experimental torpedo warheads (those didn't work too well either).
I have come up with a couple theories of my own about these Problematic shutters. The first, and best supported is that at one time these things actually worked much like regular shutters, and that whoever worked on them last should not have. The second and least obvious, is that they actually wear out. It may serve well to assume a bit of both. Service should only be attempted by qualified Problematic repairmen (women are all Problematic).

[ This Message was edited by: troublemaker on 2005-12-30 23:59 ]

Henry · Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:42 am Post subject:

LOL! The one Kodak shutter I ever tried---briefly---I returned right away. IMO, the Graphex Wollys are the best.

troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

I find that Wollensak shutters repsond to a proper CLA better if no one gotten in there and bent things up, also that a Supermatic that is not worn out can be an excellent runner. I just did two Super X shutters that are hands down the best I have seen, absolutely thrilled with these. You can tell when the springs are like new when they make a little metallic ring at the end of their cycle. A couple people have agreed with my notion that the supers do wear out, and because of user or abuse become erratic and undependable, and it is extremely difficult to get them to run well again. I have tried just about everything on a couple junkers from filing to punching and a few other tricks and trials, and no matter what, they did what they did and seemed to laugh at any attempt I made.
Wollensaks take a CLA a littel too well sometimes and the slow speeds can become too fast, while if the higher end can become slow because of fatigued springs. That is why the CLA shop sends a corrected speed test card back with the shutter, because they can't gaurantee accuracy.

Henry · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:12 am Post subject:

I know what you mean. Photog. teacher friend gave me (!) a 135 Optar in Graphex which was pretty well beat and non-functional after severe student handling (but glass was fine). Sent it to Lustig and $100+ and several replacement parts later I had a very nice useable piece. Maybe it was a bit too much, but I find that these once-common items are getting harder and harder to find, so overall I'm pleased.

45PSS · Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:00 am Post subject:

Did you ever notice that the slow sync gerar train is attached with two screws and one end of the train is sloted slightly? Some shutter repair people havent either OR to speed up production or reduce cost ignore this and therefore state that the high speed cannot be set above 1/100 or something like that.
By looseing each mount screw 1/4 to 3/8 turn and moving the sloted end of the slow speed timimng gear train .000005 to .00001 inch out
from full in toward center of the shutter to outside of shutter at a time, improved or actual speeds across the shutters complete range is accomplishable. Setting the gear train for an accurate 1 second and 1/2 second is the best setting to strive for as all you need is a watch with a second hand to reference to and the highest precentage of the shutters speeds will be accurate, + or - 1/3 stop.

Weren't "Problematic" shutters the ones that were repaired by the mechanic(s) that thought they needed to be torqued like semi truck brakes?
Charles

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[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2006-01-01 22:11 ]

troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

Hey Charles are you refering to the Wolly or Super shutter? I tend to do just what you are refering to regarding 1 and 2 sec timing, but generally if it tests just over 1 sec wihtout the speed dial in place they come around very nicely without too much futsing around, and this is what the mil spec service manual suggests. I have also seen a lot of filing, bending, and punching which I try to avoid because it is permanent. A good cleaning and proper lube will ussusally get things working nicely. Occasionally a very light deburing of the pallet with 600 w/d helps also. One thign that urks me is when I find bent levers, and recently ran into a couple Rapax that had been roughly handled so that the main lever assembly rubbed on the retard lever retaining screw head so as too really cause speed problems upon tripping the release. I also found this in one of those infamous dial set Ilex shutters that
I am not supposed to be able to fix (they are crap, but not impossibale)
HAve a good day