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80mm Xenotar
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 475
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey all

I had NOT though that much about it & could not remember what shutter I have on
my Xenotar ! so I just took a look its a #1. I don't have a Heligons to look at but I
do have a Carl Zeiss Tessar f2.8 / 80mm BIG differents in the to lens . the Tessar 80
1/4 LBS & the Xenotar 80 is a 1/2 LBS . And the Glass is 30mm on the Tessar But
on the Xenotar 36mm. that makes the Xenotar one big peace of Glass!!

banjo
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1862
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banjo, your 80/2.8 Xenotar may be a gross monstrosity like my 80/2.8 Planar, but my 80/2.8 Xenotar what fits a size 0 is a dainty little sylph of a lens. What size shutter does yours wear?

Cheers,

Dan
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 475
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey all

Dan my S-K Xenotar 80 is a 1966 in a #1 Synchro-Compur
my C Z Tessar 80 its in a #0 Compur

banjo
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may not be relevant, but the reason the last batch of 135mm Xenars were from Rodenstock and the big Graflex engraved Copals were because Graflex had a ton of shutters left over from the XL and Rodenstock was able to make lenses fit them cheaply. Tim Holden told me they wholesaled those particullar "Crown Specials" to NYC and they bought them by the hundreds. (that might be a bit hyperbolic, but he said it.)

could it be that the Xenotar changed shutters simply because of availability (or cost)?
_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1862
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les, I think that Banjo and I just confirmed my surmise that there were at least two versions of 80/2.8 Xenotar sold in shutter not to be mounted on a TLR or hung in front of a Hasselblad. Early (smaller) in #0, later (larger) in #1. Graflex wasn't the only customer for these lenses.

When I can get around to it -- not now -- I'll take a look at Schneider's on-line archive to see what they say.
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vitaly66



Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 44
Location: tirana

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schneider vintage lens data cites only configuration for Compur #1 shutter.

I will propose an assertion that, other than barrel/thread dimensions, the 80mm Xenotars are identical between Compur #0 and Compur #1 versions.

Supporting this assertion:

* The overall length of my Compur #0 Xenotar is 40.5mm, matching exactly the data for the Compur #1 version.

* The exposed area of front element glass on the Compur #0 lens is about 33mm in diameter, really squeezed snugly into a front barrel threaded for 40.5mm filters, with a very skinny lens fascia/retaining ring. By way of comparison, the diameter of exposed front element on this Xenotar is actually even a skinch *wider* than an 80mm f/2.8 Planar XL mounted in a Compur #1. Even though the front barrel of the Planar is much larger and threaded for 49mm filters, the Planar fascia/retaining ring is also very wide, and so less front element is exposed. (Where the Planar really gets huge is in the rear barrel, with absolutely massive chunks of glass compared to the other 80mm lenses.)

* The performance I observe with the Compur #0 Xenotar shows it is clearly designed to cover the full 6x7 image area without compromise.

I think Les's point is close to the mark, in that SK could produce the same or similar lens for many different markets and applications. For example, our Linhof friends could tell us about the 80mm Xenotars they find on their cameras.

Anyway, readers may take this assertion for whatever any assertion is worth. I would much prefer to have a sample of both versions in hand, so please feel free to send me your Compur #1 Xenotar for verification!
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 475
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hay all
I have been looking for good DATA on lens NOW Schneider has a
lot of good Vintage Lens Data
BUT I don't get much when I GOOGLE Zeiss or Rodenstock

so this is what I come up with sofar
Schneider

Xenotar f2.8 / 80mm

A 5-element, 4-group design, giving a 60° angle of coverage.
These are fast lenses compared to other lens designs of similar
focal length, but with somewhat less coverage

Shutter #1

Recommended Format (negative) Size 56 x 72mm

Image Circle Diameter at f/16 91mm

91Symmar 5.6/80mmmm
It is a 6-element, 4-group, in a #0 shutter
symmetric design with a 70° angle of coverage
Image Circle Diameter at f/16 110mm

Rodenstock Heligon f2.8 / 80mm is a 6-element in a #0 shutter


Zeiss Planar 80/2.8 5-element in a #0 shutter

banjo
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1862
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

banjo, neither Zeiss nor Rodenstock has easily accessible archives like Schneider's. Schneider's archives aren't complete, though.

For Zeiss, you have to have Hartmut Thiele's books or know someone who has them or have an in at Zeiss. Not sure how to find out about older Rodenstock lenses.

My 80/2.8 Xenotar is older than the document quoted and it doesn't agree what you you reported. It is in a #0 shutter. #0. #0. #0.

I'm on vacation. When I get home I'll take my little piece of garbage out of its drawer, check its serial number, look up when it was made, measure it, and report. I dated it when I got it, I think its from the early '60s but could be mistaken. I'll also see what the VM says.

What you report on the 80/2.8 Planar may be true of some 80/2.8 Planars, but it isn't true of all. I have an 80/2.8 Planar that fits a #1, not a #0. #1. #1. #1.

Note also that Planar is a trade name, usually, perhaps always, means "fastish double Gauss," that covers a number of designs. 6/4 originally, 5/4 more recently, 7/4 too, I think.
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78ltd



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject: Wow Reply with quote

This time my question brought a lot of replies. All of them interesting. Great reading. As far as I know, the 80mm Heligon and the 100mm F/3.5 Tessar offered on XL's and Century Graphics were in the same No. O shutter. They are even grouped together by name in the 1967 Shutter Guidebook. My original question was slightly overlooked, mainly what years did Graflex offer the 80mm Xenotar for Century's. Mine came with the 100mm f/3.5 Tessar. The picture on the instruction book for the Century that came with mine (with a April 67 date) clearly shows a 100mm F/3.5 Schneider Xenar in Compur-P shutter with a 64-65 serial number, yet none of my Catalog info shows it available. My catalog is 40 pages, and is undated. I say it's 65/66 because it has the first 15 pages devoted to the XL (which came out in 65) but does not show the 80mm Heligon or 270mm Rodenstock Rotelar that were offered for it later on. It does show the Rotelar in a No. 1 Compur for the regular 4x5 cameras. As well as a 270mm Optar mounted in the 1000 speed shutter for the Super Graphic. The Compur one is f/5.6 and the Optar branded version is f/6.5! The catalog pictures are front 3/4 views so I can't tell if the f/6.5 in 1000 shutter is a Rodenstock or a Wollensak knockoff. Also the Century pictured in the Catalog and Instruction book are grey bodies with black bellows. As is mine with a Jan. 68 production date. From the Rodenstock serial number data on the web, my Heligon is from 1966. It is "in the box mint" condition. I bought it for $129 on 10/13/1998 from MPEX. We need to make a Lens database on here of users lenses with shutter type and serial number data. That would be really helpful. As well as one for my other post on Accesories about RH roll holders. I can never have enough info about things I'm interested in. And as I have mentioned in other posts, Graflex would mount a 1000 speed shutter on the XL's or Century's, althugh they don't list which lenses were offered in them. That would really be a find! When Graflex closed, we lost all the special services offered by them. That to me is the real tragedy.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1862
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, more data

80/2.8 Schneider Xenotar s/n 6541676 in #0 Synchro Compur s/n 8755293. O/d of front barrel, 41.9 mm. O/d of rear barrel, 36.1 mm. Length overall, 42.0 mm.

Lens probably made in 1960, P-H Pont dates the shutter after 1952.

The VM -- file 012sss.PDF – says (p.46) says the 80/2.8 Xenotar was used on Rolleis from 1953

Zeiss (West) 80/2.8 Planar s/n 4463123. Received as loose cells which fit a #1 shutter. The late Charlie Barringer, who gave me the cells, told me that they came from Edmund Scientific. He had an 80/2.8 Planar for his Graflex XL; I believe, could be mistaken, that its cells are identical to the ones Charlie gave me.

Lens probably made around 1963.

O/d of front barrel, 51.1 mm, but the front glass is smaller. I estimate – don’t want to put calipers against the lenses’ glasses – that the Planar’s front element is about the same size as the Xenotar’s. O/d of rear barrel, 51.0 mm. The Planar’s rear element is much larger than the Xenotar’s.
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78ltd



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Here's Mine Reply with quote

80mm F/2.8 Heligon Serial No. 6,164,998.
38mm Length
40.5mm Filters
42mm Front Diameter/32mm rear Diameter
In a Graflex Synchro-Compur with 5 aperture blades (exact same shutter as the 100mm F/3.5 Tessar is mounted in).
Actual Focal Length Engraved on back of shutter is 81.42mm

In my catalog, the Schneider 80mm Xenotar is listed as 51mm Front Diameter in a No. 1 Synchro-Compur with Standard 49mm filter threads.

In the Catalog two are shown. The one pictured on the Century Graphic Page is serial no. 8,127,226. The one pictured in the seperate lens section is serial no. 8,998,691.
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