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Photographic doldrums
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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich I'm afraid to even think about how much that baby cost new. Dare I say small home?

The cheap managable 8x10 enlarger would be an 8x10 camera with some sort of light source in the back. I've more or less drawn a box enlarger. If I ever see a good light source cheap I might even build it. All it takes is a light source in back. Some way to hold the lens in front. The negative in the middle. Focus on the wall. The light source is the big hold back.
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually an old Elwood is probably the best cheap enlarger.... It suffers from the lack of a good light source as well, but at least the Elwood has solved all of the registration/parallel plane problems of the "camera on a tripod" enlarger.
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my recent (5 minute ago) searches, I've heard of the Elwoods. Finding one is something else... And undoubtedly, I'd be swapping quality for cost here. After seeing some of the prices for 8x10 enlargers, I may go the home-built route yself. I found some remarks about Glenview. Yep, they actually carry, build and modify 8x10 enlargers. But nothing that I could afford...

As far as a light source. There are a lot of options. My first thought would be 5 60 watt light bulbs going through an opal glass similar to the Graflarger back for 4x5, but incandescent. Then there is available a cold light box from Aristo, but I think they start in the 400 to 500 range and that's just for the light source. I've also read of the idea of going to a neon sign shop and having one made. The Aristo is a neon light after all. The estimated cost there was about 100. But the color would be questionable. For straight B&W it probably wouldn't matter much. For VC it would...

Now I'm thinking more an old Graflex horizontal enlarging camera. I've never heard of what the original light source was and never seen one with it, but I have seen a few go for auction. Another option anyway.

The plan now is to finally just do the 8x10 contact prints, and keep my eyes open for an affordable enlarging solution. I would love to do some 16x20's. Anything bigger would be a bit difficult to handle...


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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's true that a real enlarger like the elwood would be easier and better but the advantage of just putting a light on the back of your camera is that anybody needing an 8x10 enlarger likely already owns an 8x10 camera.

Glennviews prices seem out there. My last enlarger is selling for $1000 at Glennview without a head!$@#! He then wants $1000 for the head. So $2000 and you still wouldn't have a negative carrier or lensboard. The thing cost me $300 and was totally CLA.
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
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Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Nick. Since you've show your expertise in enlarger purchasing, it's now your job to locate a source of cheap 8x10 enlargers!

I can't honestly say that Glenview is that far off the mark? They do specify a basically 'as-is' price for some and a totally reconditioned price which is a lot higher. Maybe they are in-line with the worth? I'd have to do a lot more research to know. But since their costs are so high, it wouldn't make any difference because I would never be able to drop 2000 for an enlarger, and some were twice that.

Seems like a home-brew 8x10 Graflarger is the way to go unless something happens to pop up. I saw some messages touting how 8x10 enlargers were "being given away" because the shops weren't using them any more. Seems a bit hard to believe!

My only concern about the home-brew idea is hanging the 8x10 camera vertically. My old B&J just doesn't look like it would comfortable in that position, along with the weight of a light box. Of course going horizontal is not out of the question though, but a bit more difficult in holding the paper in position and possibly focusing?


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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-10-17 12:29, RichS wrote:
Okay Nick. Since you've show your expertise in enlarger purchasing, it's now your job to locate a source of cheap 8x10 enlargers!

I can't honestly say that Glenview is that far off the mark?

My only concern about the home-brew idea is hanging the 8x10 camera vertically.


You should have asked a week or two ago. A 20x24" process camera went no bid at $100. It even had three lenses. I almost threw the money at it but it used 240v power. The thing would have been a project to convert into an enlarger but between all the goodies it came with it was a steal.

The enlarger I bought about a month ago was a Durst 1000 with a colour head. The seller is the local Omega,Devere and Beseler repair outlet. If I didn't know the spots to check I would believe the thing was brand new. Check out what Glennview wants for a Durst 1000. Mine was $305.

The enlarger from a camera would have the paper on the wall. Tape,glue whatever. If you're enlargering 8x10 odds are you want at least 16x20. My plans are for something that can be clamped to a table. To make a bigger print just move the table further from the wall.

Check out that Devere 10x10 again. The reason big enlargers are going for cheap is who can move one of those? If you're a shop not using it but still paying rent on the space you're hoping somebody will take it off your hands. Any money is better then paying to having somebody cart it off to the dump. Sad thing is these things are likely all in perfect condition.
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clnfrd



Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 616
Location: Western Kentucky Lakes Area

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone notice? RichS is out of his doldrums.
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-10-17 15:48, clnfrd wrote:
Anyone notice? RichS is out of his doldrums.


SHhhhhh!


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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

another name to look for is Fotar. 10 years ago these were selling in the $1000s of dollars, but a firend picked one up at a bankruptcy sale for $400 complete with lens, light source (B&W) and neg holder. The light source was 6 250w focused projector bulbs (they look a lot like the low voltage MR-16s) that project into a mixing box. Oh and it has and exhaust fan for use during the summer months.

Unlike all of the Dursts I've seen this one was wall mont only--or wall secured, as it had an 8ft mast that sat on the floor. It took us 1/2 hour to decontstuct it and anothe 1hour to reassemble it in his basement (not including the 1hour it took to figure out that he measured wrong and the mast was a foot too long. It's now the only 7 foot Fotar in the world.)

Do you have a 7 foot clearance?

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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
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Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick:
A process camera would be a good start. But it doesn't really have anything over any other camera as far as converting to enlarger, except maybe the cost.

Going horizontal is no real problem as long as some consideration is made for alignment to keep everything in focus. But that shouldn't be all that difficult and would be easily checked with someting like a grain focuser with the lens wide open.

Les:
Never heard of Fotar, but I'll make sure to do a search!
Yes, I do have 7 foot clearance. A big advantage in my garage as the upstairs is completely unfinished with an 8 foot ceiling. I could arrange a 12 foot clearance if I had to. 16 if I didn't mind cutting a beam here or there And wall mounting would be easy also as long as I built he wall...

As far as condition and cost, that seems to be a major problem with the larger enlargers. They may be in perfect condition when bought, and not so after being disassembled, moved and reassembled. Especially if you have to pay someone else to do it all. I sure can't rent a truck and drive across country just to pick up a giant beast. I'm hoping to find something a bit smaller than that DeVere that can be packaged and shipped. Someday I hope...
But the thought of enlarging an 8x10 negative does have me fired up. Can't even imagine it. How large can you buy paper nowadays?



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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The process camera that I was talking about came with a vacum easel. It really was the sort of thing that a person handy with power could have sorted out. The three lenses alone would have been worth more then half the selling price. The only thing it needed was for somebody to figure a way to add a light source to it. The camera was a "small" agfa. From what the seller told me it was about 3'x3'3' with the head down.
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Nick



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think roll paper comes in sizes up to 40" wide [maybe more-)))] and 200+ feet long.
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
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Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sure wouldn't pass up a process camera if it had accessories like that! And I wouldn't feel so bad about using an old wood 8x10 camera as an enlarger. Although if used horizontally and the light box clipped on like a standard back, there should be no damage to a camera...
I take it for granted that finding an 8x10 enlarger will take some time. There is one now for auction, but as usual, he won't ship it. And it doesn't even seem to be that large? An "Elwood". Also looks like it's missing something, but what do I know? I'm sure I will find one someday that I can afford and can be shipped. Worse comes to worse, I'll save my money and buy one from Glenview next year if things go right.

Another option, which Glenview offers oddly enough, is a Polaroid MP4 copy camera converted with a light box. I almost bought one more than once and they are occasionally affordable. They also have shipping problems though. Would make a good enlarger!

Roll paper is a great idea for large prints but I have no idea what a cost it would involve. I could imagine doing a 40inch by 24 foot mural Might need a wide angle lens for that And how would it be processed??? It's a shame I can't take over the entire garage area....


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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-10-21 07:55, RichS wrote:
And I wouldn't feel so bad about using an old wood 8x10 camera as an enlarger.

Roll paper is a great idea for large prints but I have no idea what a cost it would involve.


Personally I still like the idea of just building a box camera for an enlarger. Without the need for movements it should be fairly simple to build. Using the two boxes means no bellows so that's a plus to.

Roll paper is actually a better deal in terms of dollars per sq foot-)) Some times I'll see colour rollpaper on Ebay for little more then the shipping. But the shipping up here doesn't make sense.

Developing really large prints I think means something like wall paper trays.
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
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Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The box camera idea is a great one for a horizontal enlarger. It would be very simple to construct. The only hard part might be the negative carrier. I suppose the only down side to horizontal is needing 6 to 8 feet for projection space. That's easier for most people vertically, including myself.

I'll have to put some more thought into this. Figure out extension lengths for projection size, etc. I may just build one of these for the heck of it. I am sure that 4 or 5 standard light bulbs behind an opal glass plate would work. That's what Graflex did for thei contact printer. The boxes are easy. Then just a mount for my 6x6 lens boards to use the camera lenses. I'm always one for putting a first one together without too much thought "for the fun of it" and then rethinking the whole thing to do a better job I'm also one for "measure once, cut twice"...

Although I've never done it, long paper isn't too hard. The wall paper tray works for that width. Longer ones can be found or made. Large house gutter material might work, or make one out of wood. Then two rollers. One in the tray and one suspended above. Something wrapped around the rollers, probably non-absorbent would be best. The paper connected to that material, emulsion side out. Then rolled through the chemicals in the tray. I wanted to do that when I was a kid but never could manage the money for the paper. We settled on 8x10's connected together... Back then, we couldn't go all that large with the 35mm stuff we had anyway...

I wonder what kind of light source you'd need to do mural size? How about those 600 watt halogen work lights? 4 or 5 of those should do the trick


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