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First 8x10 negative!
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOWWW!!!!!

Okay, got that out of the way

I just finished developing my first two 8x10 negs. Just can't beleive it at all. The size & clarity. Doesn't seem to be real, similar to the huge camera that took them

I'm posting more or less to answer questions that I've seen posted in the past and to kindof finalize a few years of discussions (like what tripod to get...).

I shot from a box of old Tri-X that I got from ebay a while ago. Dated 2000. Shot it at ASA 320 just to see how it would work. Just fine! And had to test a Symmar 240/420 to see how well it really performed at both focal lengths.

Developed in D-76 (had it mixed) which has sat in the jug for about a year now. Still good as when mixed. Brown plastic jug & full.
Developed in a "The Western" drum by Pfefer on top of a Unicolor Uniroller motorized base. It reverses direction and does a good job at agitation.

I see no signs of uneven developing at all. Used no pre-wet and did use a stop bath & fix right in the drum. Washed in a tray.

The only down side to this first attempt is finally realizing what carrying that camera means. I had to weigh it after I brought it back in, just over 30 pounds without a film holder (camera and tripod). Won't be walking too far with that! This is my Burke & James Commercial View with a Berlebach 2042 tripod topped with a Bogen 3047 head. Yes, I finally found a tripod that I like!!!

The second problem is loading the holders and drum. I always used a standard changing bag. Even bought a new one for the 8x10. 27x30 inches. Thought the holder was 11 inches, film 10 inches, plenty of room... Not quite. The _outside_ of the bag is 27x30, not the inside. And the holder becomes a bit more than 11 inches when the dark slide is being removed Then there's fighting with the bag top which of course doesn't stay away from the hands or film. Then there's the sweating hands & arms in 90 degree weather... A changing bag doesn't work well at all for 8x10... But with a little patience and creativity, it does work. Biggest trick is to roll the film in and out of the holder... Next on my list now is a changing tent!

So there's my boring report of my first 8x10 negatives. More work than Polaroids, but cheaper and beats the heck out of it for sharpness. And it's fun. The drum works great and so does old film (well, mine was still sealed when I got it). And the finished 8x10 negative is just too amazing to describe! I'm sure the old hands will have a chuckle, but I'm amazed! I'm not leaving 4x5 by any means, but I'm sure glad I took the plunge into the larger format just for the experience...

Rich...


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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Next on my list now is a changing tent! '

YES YES YES! I really like the Harrison I bought It does a great job and my hands didn't sweat in it!

Look at B&H photo for descptions and then watch ebay. I bought mine for $80 and was designed for 8x10 but I suspect you'd have to pull the darkslides all the way out when you put the film in. They do have a larger size for 11x14 holders, but you could also house the US girls olympic gymnastic team in there too.

A word of caution about old D76. As it ages it changes character. When mixed the Ph is about 8.3. As it sits the pH rises to 9.0. at this point the Hydroquinone starts to activate and create a higher contrast negative.

So if you use year old D-76 all the time, no harm done. but don't expect fresh D-76 to react like the aged solution. It takes about 3-6 months for the pH to rise.


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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

The only down side to this first attempt is finally realizing what carrying that camera means. I had to weigh it after I brought it back in, just over 30 pounds without a film holder (camera and tripod). Won't be walking too far with that!


Don't worry. One of the unalterable rules of 8x10 LF photography is that there is NOTHING scenic more than 100 feet from the nearest road.

Enjoyed your report. Keep us posted on your progress and "discoveries".


[ This Message was edited by: alecj on 2003-07-05 15:52 ]
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very interesting about D-76. Could the higher contrast then actually make the old film work better?
I've now had a chance to loupe the negs. The first shot at 240mm and duplicated with a Polaroid for comparison. The Polaroid looks like, well a Polaroid. Not bad and I would be happy with it. The neg is so much sharper I can almost not beleive it. Unfortunately, I believed my darkroom thermometer that read 72 when every other thermometer in the ohuse read 80+. So it got a half minute too much developer, but still useable and I think better for scanning. The second shot at 420 was developed better, but now I see the camera moved just a tiny bit. Looks like it would have been more than acceptably sharp if not for that. Too bad I was more interested in the negs than what would be on them... It's also a shame that the first try on the second shot, with the dogs in perfect pose, didn't quite go so well. Forgot to remove the dark slide.... The dogs didn't have the patience for another try
When I go to make a photograph, a new mix of developer will deffinitely be in order. This was all a big test for the changing bag, roller and 8x10 film in general. But now that I know it all works!
And thanks for the info on the tent. I didn't buy one because of the size. Calumet recently had one on sale, but the folded size was 16x20 or so and that just doesn't fit into traveling well. Now I'll have to reconcider and try one. It really is a chore working with that size film in a bag...


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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-07-05 15:51, alecj wrote:

Don't worry. One of the unalterable rules of 8x10 LF photography is that there is NOTHING scenic more than 100 feet from the nearest road.

Enjoyed your report. Keep us posted on your progress and "discoveries".


[ This Message was edited by: alecj on 2003-07-05 15:52 ]

Now that I can agree with I wouldn't mind taking it farther if I had a mule or helper... But what I also tried this time was taking the camera, mounted on the tripod. Then the loupe, meter, dark cloth and two film holders in a small and light cheap soft briefcase type thing (a freebie from some mail order). It would hold another film holder and that's about it. But to take a short walk from the car, it would be perfect. Now I just have to find one without a broken zipper (so much for free...), And then I might try the tripod without that huge 3047 head. The tripod has a leveling ball that swings 30 degrees which should be enough for most pics. The head is nice, but it does add a lot of weight...
At least now that I can do real film, I should be able to do some more experimenting. Those 8x10 Polaroids are a bit too expensive to waste...


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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3233
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2005-12-26 20:31 ]
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, deffinitely let me know about the Photoflex. I saw them while searching for the Harrison. Apparently the Harrison is concidered the best (thanks Les), but the prices for a new one are way over what I would go for. May be a long time before an affordable one comes up for auction... The Photoflex I could swing, but I'm not sure there would be enough room inside?

The roller & drum was a cheap experiment that worked great. I was ordering something from Midwest when I thought about a roller for 8x10. They had the Uniroller base but no Unicolor drums. They said "I have one drum that should work" at about 9 bucks as I remember, so I took it. Never heard of the company (Pfefer) before? The ends are a bit hard to remove once in place, but it does work. I'm going to look into other drums soon so I can load more than one neg without having to completely dry the first one out. Water inside the changing bag is probably a bad thing...
The drum has ridges that go all the way down the tube about an inch apart. They hold the edges of the film so it stays in place. Holding only one 8x10, rolled lengthwise. If you try two (in an 11x14 drum I think, no that wouldn't work, must be 16x20?) there's the chance of the film moving and overlapping the other sheet. There was just a discussion about making sperators to go inbetween the sheets someplace. I'm also going to try this as being able to do two sheets at a time would be really nice, especially since I can't pull the dark slide all the way out of the holder in the changing bag to mark which side was removed... I just leave the slide out a bit and then turn it over when everything comes out of the bag.
The liquids pour into one end into a cup. When you turn the drum horizontal and place it on the roller, the liquids drain out into the drum. Take the drum off the roller and turn it vertically, the liquids drain out the bottom into a funnel/bottle, while you're pouring the new liquid into the top.
Some drums seem to have leakage problems also. Mine will leak a few drops if the ends aren't tight. And there's always some dribbling from the input end. Have to be one a water proof surface that's easily cleaned really. Or some sheets of newspaper or something. It's really no different than say 35mm in a tank except the roller does the continuos agitation. I like it a lot. This drum uses just under 8 ounces of liquid. 7 is good, 8 will dribble out the end when laid over. Developer, stop & fix work fine on one 8x10 with 7 ounces. The D-76 was straight by the way.
I like the drum/roller so much that I'd like to look into a more advanced system that allows 4x5 (might work in the 8x10?) and 35mm in the baskets. Although I don't see how it can do 35mm and get the liquids onto all the film without using more than this drum could hold? But they do make them (Jobo does this I think). and for 4x5, I like the tank that holds up to 12 sheets. I never had a problem with uneven deloping with those either and I just picked up a Yankee to try. It looks better than my general brand...

The drums & rollers are easily had from the big used folks like Midwest, KEH, etc and very inexpensive. I see them all the time on ebay for about the same. Generally, the drum & roller go for less than 20 bucks. Sorry, but I don't know about all the different brands and specs. Wish I did! I was even surprised to find the roller reversed direction! I used to use an old drum setup that was much more basic. A big tube that sat in a water bath with a rubber ring on the drum that rides agaisnt a motor shaft. Did work great for color prints, but it didn't reverse and was a bit messy. But color did need that temerature control.
If anyone else has suggestions for other drums and specs, I'd sure like to hear them too!


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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-07-05 23:56, 45PSS wrote:
...nsip...
I'll find out how well an 8 x 10 holder works out when I get some and some film. (camera {eastman commerical} should be ont the way, holders bid on).
...snip...
Charles

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[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2003-07-06 00:05 ]

Forgot... Nice camera! Is that the metal one? The one I almost bid on and would really love to own?
That metal Eastman View would be second on my list after the Graphic 'Universal'. About the closest thing you can get to an 8x10 Crown with triple extension all in one nice small box. Only seen one Universal yet and went for way more than I could afford... But that esatman that was just up almost got me



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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the changing tent I have
8x10

open its 27 x36 closed is 16 x 5" dia...eminately portable. I didn't see the dimentions of the 11x14 on the calumet site but I think the lenght approches 44".

I doubt the higher contrast helped much. As the HQ became active it also brought up any base fog. By the way this came from Grant Haist via the Film Developing Cookbook. This wild variablitily has been known since 1929 two years after the introduction of D76. Many have tried to over come the problem. Grant's solution was to just leave the #@!! Hydro quinone out of the formula!
Photographer's Formulary now sells a kit form of D76H. H for Haist.

An for those to think they've seen Grant's name before.....He wrote the intro and developing chapters in the last (11th) edtion of Graphic Graflex Photography.
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Les. It does look like a great tent, but look at that price!
I'll keep watching for a used one, but a slightly less expensive one may have to do for a while, if I can find one that would fit...
Ah, the 'cookbook'. Not only have ity, it's on my suggested reading list... Even have the D-76 page marked... You'd think I would have read it I did notice the remarks about Kodak's additives for hard water areas. Something I really need since our unfiltered water comes directly out of the ground behind our house... Haven't had any developing problems yet though.
I may be one of the odd ones ("may be"? ) but my favorite developer was always Microdol-X. The only reason I had D-76 mixed was that it was suggested for the Maco IR film and I didn't have anything mixed at the time. D-76 does seem okay, but if I could find a reliable source for Microdol and replenisher, I would never go back! And the newer 'cookbook' now has the supposed formula for it. But I haven't yet tried mixing my own. Another hobby I will pick up one of these days...


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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it is steep, and I certainly would search for one used. I bought mine for $80 or so on ebay. I used it when I went out west for 10 days. 200 sheets of film and nearly zero dust.

How much would it cost to go out and reshoot a great shot because there was too much dust/film damage on the neg from an old changing bag?
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
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Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-07-06 11:35, Les wrote:
Yes it is steep, and I certainly would search for one used. I bought mine for $80 or so on ebay. I used it when I went out west for 10 days. 200 sheets of film and nearly zero dust.

How much would it cost to go out and reshoot a great shot because there was too much dust/film damage on the neg from an old changing bag?


Does that mean that if you don't bring the old bag with you, you don't have to worry about dust?


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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-07-06 08:57, RichS wrote:

I like the drum/roller so much that I'd like to look into a more advanced system that allows 4x5 (might work in the 8x10?) and 35mm in the baskets. Although I don't see how it can do 35mm and get the liquids onto all the film without using more than this drum could hold? But they do make them (Jobo does this I think). and for 4x5, I like the tank that holds up to 12 sheets. I never had a problem with uneven deloping with those either and I just picked up a Yankee to try. It looks better than my general brand...

I was even surprised to find the roller reversed direction!



That's my 4x5,120 and 35mm setup. The big Jobo tank could hold 18 4x5 sheets if I had three reels. For 35mm,220 or double loaded 120 the big tank needs 1.25litres of solution. For 4x5 it needs 1litre. Or the medium tank I have which holds 5 rolls of 35mm only needs something like 650ml of solution. For B&W the problem isn't too much solution. Unless you do everything stock you'll be using more then the minimal amount of chemicals that Jobo suggests. With the unicolor motor you can put a lot more soloution into the tanks then any high priced Jobo processor can handle. Colour can use less chemicals then the min that the Jobo tanks need.

You really need a motor that reverses direction. The other choice is to lift the drum up every so often and flip it. I snagged two motorbases for less then $25 so it's not like reversing motors are expensive.
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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Jobo 2500 series I just talked about won't handle 8x10. For 8x10 you need the 3000 series of tanks. Those things are expensive. Make the 2500 look cheap and new the 2500 system isn't exactly cheap.

With some luck you can get a 2500 used for cheap. I managed two tanks [5 and 8 rolls of 35mm] 12 35/120 reels and a bunch of other odds and ends for less then $60. New just the smaller tank would have cost about that.

Oh and to use the 2500 on a motor you need at least the five reel tank. I doubt smaller ones will work.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



[ This Message was edited by: 45PSS on 2005-12-26 20:32 ]
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