Graflex.org Forum Index Graflex.org
Get help with your Graflex questions here
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Using a Modern Flash Unit with Ciro-flex

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Graflex.org Forum Index -> CiroFlex Help
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Brian Jones



Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject: Using a Modern Flash Unit with Ciro-flex Reply with quote

I have a Ciro-flex Model F but need info on how to use the flash settings. The settings are F-X, a red M and a black M. I have ordered a synch cord to fit the flash port on the Ciro-flex and hope to hook it up to the PC port on a modern Vivitar electronic flash unit.

Can someone tell me the differences in the three settings and what setting I should use for the above mentioned setup? Any information is appreciated.
_________________
Stereo Photography ROCKS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3207
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black M=M type flash bulbs sync @ shutter speeds marked in black.
Red M=M type flash bulbs sync @ shutter speed marked in Red
F-X=Gas filled flash bulbs that fire quickly; electronic flash sync.

Connect the Vivitar flash via the adaptor cords, turn the flash on, set the aperture to minimun, shutter speed to 1/100 or near equivelent, open the camera back, point the camera and flash at a wall opposite you, cock and trip the shutter while looking thru the taking lens= Flash peak visible thru the open shutter/lens=timing correct at X or F-X. Setting sync to Black or Red M and repeating the test you will see the shutter blades in the lens opening while the flash is firing.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
C. Henry



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 356
Location: North East Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it has been over a half century since I was taught how to do a flash syncronizing test, I believe I was taught to have the aperture wide open for the test and to use the same shutter speed as I would be shooting the flash pictures.
M sync. fires the flash about 20 milliseconds BEFORE the shutter is fully open, F sync. fires the flash nearer to the fully open point but still before that time, while X sync. fires the flash at the fully open timing. X sync should be used for all modern electronic flash units. A few really old (from the 1950s) electronic flash units had a built in delay so that their timing would mimic that of a flashbulb.

C. Henry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brian Jones



Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: More questions Reply with quote

Thank you very much for the info. I have a few more questions if anyone can assist.

I am still uncertain about shutter speed and aperture using a flash. The flash unit manual is poorly written and only mentions aperture settings but not shutter speed. Is 100 to 125 a safe bet? I know my father always used shutter speed 100 and three settings, F16 @ 6 ft, f11 @8 ft and f8 @ 10 ft (from his scotch taped paper and pencil label on the back of his camera)- but I don't know what speed of film he used.

Second, what were the standard film speeds for Kodachrome 120 film back in the 1950s-70'?

Third, the threaded socket for the cable release is missing from my Ciro-flex F. I also have a Ciro-flex model D which I'd remove the socket from to put in my Model F (because of the better lens) if it isn't too difficult. Does anyone have any info or links to offer on how to remove it?

Final question, has anyone compared the resolution of the Wollensak Raptar 3.2 to the 3.5 Velo or Anastigmats? Is there much noticeable difference?

Thank you.
_________________
Stereo Photography ROCKS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
C. Henry



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 356
Location: North East Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian;

With a between the lens elements shutter, any speed is ok with an electronic flash as the flash is over before the shutter closes. Your father was using a "guide number" between 80 &96 with whatever film & flash combination he used when he made the note you quoted. Your suggestion of a shutter speed of 1/100 - 1/125 of a second should work well.
As to the speed of Kodachrome, I recall that it was considered a "slow" film in the 1950s which translates to an ISO rating of 50 or less. I'm guessing 25 or 32 but that is only a guess. Hopefully someone else will have an old film data sheet to give you a better answer on that.
I have no answers on your other two questions.

C. Henry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: More questions Reply with quote

Brian Jones wrote:
Thank you very much for the info. I have a few more questions if anyone can assist.

I am still uncertain about shutter speed and aperture using a flash. The flash unit manual is poorly written and only mentions aperture settings but not shutter speed. Is 100 to 125 a safe bet? I know my father always used shutter speed 100 and three settings, F16 @ 6 ft, f11 @8 ft and f8 @ 10 ft (from his scotch taped paper and pencil label on the back of his camera)- but I don't know what speed of film he used.


The flash duration is really your shutter speed, so as long as it's synchronized anything from a 1/60 to 1/200 should work, middle speeds are probably the safest, slower speeds start allowing ambient light to come in and you might get ghosting. Fastest speeds might not be fully synchronzied and you'll lose light. Just to "get something on film" I'd start with the automatic setting of the vivitar, and for the last few shots go to manual and use the guide number method (the guide number should be in the manual, you just divide the distance into the guide number to get the f stop ex: guide number of 160, distance 10 feet 160/10=f16
Quote:


Second, what were the standard film speeds for Kodachrome 120 film back in the 1950s-70'?


I don't know of any 120 Kodachrome in the 50s-70s. They did make 120 KOdakchrome in the late 80s/90s. Ektachrome was an alternative transparency film in the 50s and was probably made in 120 but I don't know the speed.
Quote:


Third, the threaded socket for the cable release is missing from my Ciro-flex F. I also have a Ciro-flex model D which I'd remove the socket from to put in my Model F (because of the better lens) if it isn't too difficult. Does anyone have any info or links to offer on how to remove it?


Getting to the socket isn't difficult, but you'll need some nice jeweler's screwdrivers. Remove the front cell, set the shutter to B, remove the two small screws in the front. That should remove the face and the shutter wheel. Now you'll be able to look inside the shutter and see how the socket is attached and whether or not you need to start messing with major components.
Quote:


Final question, has anyone compared the resolution of the Wollensak Raptar 3.2 to the 3.5 Velo or Anastigmats? Is there much noticeable difference?


The Raptar should be a fast tessar while the other lenses are triplets. In a perfect world, I would expect the tessar to out perform the triplet up to about f8 or 11, then diffraction evens out the playing field. That said, original build quality and the life each lens has lead has a far greater effect on performance than it's pedigree.
Thank you.[/quote]
_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1439
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kodachrome speed in the '50s was ASA 10 (!), that's as in "ten." Later on it was upped to 15, IIRC, then to 25 with Kodachrome II in the '60s. This last (K25) was only recently discontinued (within the last five years or so), to the regret of many who prized its fine resolution and color fidelity, not to mention its archival qualities, which it shares with the two remaining Kodachrome emulsions, K64 and K200. Straying somewhat off-topic, I note that there is now only one location to send Kodachrome for processing, and that's out in Kansas. Used to be you selected the location from any of 10-12 nationwide, all run by Kodak, but now it's down to this last one and that's run by Qualex. I expect to wake up one fine morning, any day now, to read that Kodachrome has been discontinued, and we will have lost yet another fine product from Great Yellow Father (PanatomicX, Verichrome Pan, SuperXX, etc., etc.). I'm somewhat astonished that they're still making PlusX. End of rant (for now)....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1439
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since OP asked about flash, I should augment my post with further info from the Kodak Master Photoguides that I consulted for the above. From the 1954 edition, Kodachrome Daylight ASA 10 was ASA 2-1/2 (I swear!) under tungsten light with 80A filter, while Kodachrome Type A was ASA 10 in daylight with no. 85 filter, and ASA 16 under tungsten (16!--now we're getting somewhere!).

From the 1966 edition, ASA 25 Kodachrome II Daylight's speed under photoflood (3400 K) was 8 with 80B filter, and under tungsten (3200 K) was 6 with 80A filter. Kodachrome II Professional Type A, balanced for 3400 K photoflood, was rated 40 under photoflood and 32 under tungsten with an 82A filter.

Neither of these guides lists any film sizes for Kodachrome other than 135 (35mm) and 828.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3207
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While it has been over a half century since I was taught how to do a flash syncronizing test, I believe I was taught to have the aperture wide open for the test and to use the same shutter speed as I would be shooting the flash pictures.

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh........I got my terms reversed
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Brian Jones



Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if Kodachrome didn't come in 120 size, I must have been wrong, my father was probably using Kodacolor 120 rolls to shoot the family pictures?? I still don't know what ASA. I believe he used Kodachrome 40 8mm for the movies, wherein my confusion may have arisen.

By the way, his camera was a 1955 Skyflex by Tougodo of Japan, which I have inherited. Better build in some ways than Ciro-flex, it has a mechanical film counter and a nicer magnifier lens, and a push button shutter release. I read on another blog that it's 3.5 TriLausar lenses in it aren't raved about, nevertheless it took some mighty crisp photos over the span of 35 years that enlarge very well. The view screen glass was cracked - he probably dropped it in his final, feeble years, so I just had a new one made by a gentleman named Rick Oleson and the view optics are now marvelous! The new screen has a split/circle in the middle (the original did not).

I acquired a Ciro-flex Model D before I inherited the Skyflex, and shortly thereafter read up on the acclaimed 3.2 Raptar in the Model F's, which for $20.00 I later acquired. I fixed the Skyflex for sentimental reasons but have yet to test a roll with it.

I've been mighty happy with my Ciro-flex's and aside from ease of finding accessories or the lack of a film wind crank, I frankly don't understand why serious medium format amateurs would shell out hundreds more for say a Rolleiflex. The German camera companies certainly made the most durable and beautifully engineered cameras back in the day, but it seems the post-war American companies made some respectable and ample quality products that were within reasonable price ranges for Mr and Mrs. Jones, such as Ciro, Argus, Revere, etc.

I too am saddened by the demise of classic Kodak films, particularly Kodachrome, which I only recently discontinued using to shoot stereo slides (Fuji Sensia is what I now use). Just this weekend I discovered that Longs Drugs near my house no longer carries Kodak BW400CN, a decently priced C-41 process black and white I only recently discovered. I still can't believe those disposable cameras in the foil wrappers are still even sold, the pictures they take are such crap.

I am particularly curious to know how long digital images last. It seems like some of my digital images have already degraded over time - is that possible?
_________________
Stereo Photography ROCKS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1439
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again from the Kodak Master Photoguides, Kodacolor Daylight Type was E.I. (for Exposure Index, the term they use) 25; tungsten value not given. Kodacolor Type A was E.I. 12 (in daylight with no. 85 filter) and E.I. 20 with tungsten. Those values from the 1954 edition. By 1966, Kodacolor-X was E.I. 80 in daylight, 25 with photoflood (3400 K) and 80B filter, and 20 with tungsten and 80A filter. Both Guides say the film was available in rolls, sizes not given but certainly including 120/620.

A few years ago I purchased some 120 rolls of Kodacolor 200 at a camera show. I still have some of it in the fridge. It doesn't seem to be available in rolls anymore.

I've been shooting Fuji Provia for color slides, and I like it a lot, but the problem with these E-6 films is longevity, which is not a concern with Kodachrome. Those slides will probably be around with the roaches after the Big Bomb. I wouldn't make any bets on the longevity of digital anything, unless I put my money on the short side.

For chromogenic b/w C-41 you might try Ilford XP2 Super. It's less expensive than the T400CN, and I like it a lot better. You may have to mail order it from B&H, etc. I've shot a lot of it with my Century. I expose it at 100, not the nominal 400 listed, then scan the negs into Photoshop. Don't know what the optimal E.I. would be if I were still using wet chemistry in the darkroom for printing.


Last edited by Henry on Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Henry



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 1439
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correction: it is Gold 100, not "Kodacolor 200," that I have in the fridge. Four rolls of 120, expiration date Nov. '97. Guess I better use it one of these days. If the color's really bad I can always convert it to b/w in Photoshop.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Graflex.org Forum Index -> CiroFlex Help All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group