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65 mm Angulon on Baby Pacemaker Speed Graphic
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Digimassa



Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 31
Location: austria/europe

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
reading on this site its not possible to
focuss at infinity with above lense and camera, reading maybe it is possible.
So someone knows it exactly by own experience?
Other question is not a lense question, whats about polaroid backs for this size, i didnt find one. Is there a workaround or what to do?
Thanks and kind regards
Martin
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been some discussions here about the effect of the thicker Speed vs. Crown [or Century} 23 models. That may account for your problem. My experience was with that lens and a Century [much thinner camera]. Worked fine there.

The Polaroid back from the 2x3 Horseman cameras will fit your camera as long as it has the Graflok back. You'll have to make adjustments to the rangefinder, however, since the focus plane of the polaroid back is further back than the film plane of the camera.
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Digimassa



Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 31
Location: austria/europe

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2001 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for answer, my question is now, if this lense dont work with a Speed Graphic, why not use an adapted lensboard as seen on Linhofs, making the use of wide angle lenses possible. And please somebody has a DOF table for above lense and Kodak 101mm.
Thanks
Martin
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2001 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>why not use an adapted lensboard as seen on >Linhofs, making the use of wide angle >lenses possible.

The 23 lensboard is so small already there is no room to add a recessed lensboard, which I assume you are referring to. So, either it works on your Speed or it doesn't.
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Digimassa



Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 31
Location: austria/europe

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleci, you have tried this? I dont know about, but with this FP shutter I can use lenses without shutter, and maybe a modification of the lenseboard, tricky done, could be possible. How I understand, the lense should be a little forwards, away from the FP. Is it possible do say, how far to move to be sure to be able to focuss to infinity?
Thanks
Martin
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How I understand, the lense should be a little forwards, away from the FP. Is it possible do say, how far to move to be sure to be able to focuss to infinity?

Martin, I think you're describing the problem backwards. To focus the lens at infinity, the lens is moved TOWARDS the film plane [and the FP shutter]. There is plenty of room on the film rails to move the lens outwards [that allows close focusing]. What I was saying is that since the camera is thicker [than a Century or Crown] because of the FP shutter, then that might inhibit just how far you can move the lensstandard INTO the camera. On some cameras, a RECESSED lensboard is employed for that purpose, not not on 23 Graphics. Have you tried, while the lens is open and viewing from the groundglass, moving the lensboard towards the rear? That's the real test. Hope that makes sense.

If you will re-read the messages you mentioned earlier, I think you'll find that discussion was about focusing the rangefinder at such close distances. But not focusing the lens itself.


[ This Message was edited by: alecj on 2001-10-07 20:04 ]
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Digimassa



Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 31
Location: austria/europe

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alecj, Im a bloody rook with this kind of cameras, I bought this from USA on eBay, but because of big delay in air cargo I didnt get it until now. Similar is with Angulon lense, I bought it, but its on the road still.
To shorten waiting time and to get a little
knowledge I started reading this site and found on different places different meanings
about the use of this Angulon with Pacemaker Speed Graphic. I understood that this camera has an FP shutter, different to Crown Graphic or Century Graphic, and this results in possible problems using wide angel lenses.
Please be so kind to explain one sentence more to the use of polaroid backs. Does it mean, that film is on another plan as polaroid film and I have to recalibrate RF everytime using this or this. And how about GG focussing, this is not possible for the use of polaroid backs?
Thanks and Kind Regards
Martin
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Please be so kind to explain one sentence more to the use of polaroid backs. Does it mean, that film is on another plan as polaroid film and I have to recalibrate RF everytime using this or this. And how about GG focussing, this is not possible for the use of polaroid backs?

Well, I certainly can't say all that in one sentence, even if I knew all the answers, which I do not!

If you can find a Polaroid back to fit your Pacemaker 23 Speed camera, the film plane for the Polaroid back will be different than the film plane in the camera for roll or sheet film. That is due to the mechanical limitations of the mounts for the back and the camera.

I have not used a Polaroid back on a 23 Graphic, but I understand you can use your rangefinder by moving the front standard back [towards the film plane] to compensate for the fact that the film plane of the Polaroid back is set back further than the camera film plane. You move the front standard back about 15mm to compensate.

I can't think of a way to use a GG for focus in this situation, but someone else might.

[ This Message was edited by: alecj on 2001-10-08 06:48 ]
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The earliest version of a Polaroid back for the 4x5 Speed Graphic suffered from the same problem.

There are three ways I see to use both the Polaroid back and a roll or film back and the rangefinder at the same time.

1. Design a spacer to fit between the old stops and the positon of "polaroid infinity.

2. Put a second set of stops so they locate on the BACK of the standard

3. Move only one of the current stops to "polaroid infinity".

The first part is to find exactly where the new P-back focuses.

I haven't used a Horseman back but I assume they use 3x4 pack film. All pack film back have pin rollers to keep the film flat. There fore any ground glass that's kept in contact with those rollers will be on/at the film plane.

The solution is to mount the back and then tape a piece of Ground Glass (or plain glass) where the Polaroid film pack would go. Now move the front standard to give a sharp focus on the ground glass (use a loupe on plain glass adjusted for the far side of the glass)

With short lenses the back of the standard may fall in that hinge part between the front and back rails, so that leaves you with the spacer or shifting one stop. A less accurate, but cheaper idea is the put a pencil mark on the rails to locate Polaroid infinity.
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Digimassa



Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 31
Location: austria/europe

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all, I see I came into a wonderland like
Alice; now Im still looking hard forwards to get my camera.
Thanks all and Kind Regards
Martin
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good. I was afraid we would scare you off before you got it. Look at it this way. Because of the difficulty in getting 23 sheet film, you'll undoubtedly use a roll film back for most of your work. Chances are you might not invest in a Horseman P-back [more expensive than another camera body].
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1881
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-10-08 09:16, Digimassa wrote:
Hi all, I see I came into a wonderland like
Alice; now Im still looking hard forwards to get my camera.
Thanks all and Kind Regards
Martin


Um, er, ah, Alice, sorry, Martin, y'r question re polaroid backs for your new used 2x3 Speed is a little moot. There are no such beasts, even in Wonderland.

Y'r question re using a 65 Wrangulon, sorry, Angulon, on the new marvel is probably entirely empirical. I don't have one, a little rich for my budget, but I do have a 65/6.8 Wollensak. Not the same formula. According to the bible (Morgan & Lester's book Graphic Graflex Photography) some of them work on 2x3 and 3x4 Speeds, others don't Wollensak sold them as fit for use on both cameras. Mine won't make infinity on my Speed, the bellows won't compress enough. Someone else here (Les? Henry?) has one that works just fine on his Speed. Theory goes out the window, measurement comes in.

Cheers,

Dan
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Digimassa



Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 31
Location: austria/europe

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, this Angulon I bought in Germany for about 110.- U$, I think more expensive are
Super Angulons.
I dont understand exactly, why this is such a mystery; as a rook I thought, this lense and this camera are industrial products, exactly made, so why some work and some not.
I hope, some day the camera will arrive and the lense, and then I will try it. On the other side, what means you cannot focus to infinity, Im happy if DOF goes to infinity, especially on a wide angel lense, so I dont understand the problem alltogether.
Thanks and Regards
Martin
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1881
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-10-08 15:50, Digimassa wrote:
Dan, this Angulon I bought in Germany for about 110.- U$, I think more expensive are
Super Angulons.
I dont understand exactly, why this is such a mystery; as a rook I thought, this lense and this camera are industrial products, exactly made, so why some work and some not.
I hope, some day the camera will arrive and the lense, and then I will try it. On the other side, what means you cannot focus to infinity, Im happy if DOF goes to infinity, especially on a wide angel lense, so I dont understand the problem alltogether.
Thanks and Regards
Martin

Martin:

Good deal! They usually cost more here.

What "it won't focus at infinity" means is that with the lens as close to the film plane as physically possible (front standard pushed all the way back into the body, bellows fully compressed) the far focusing limit is closer than infinity. In fact, with my 65/6.8 Raptar on my 2x3 Pacemaker Speed, the far focusing limit is around 8 meters. DOF really doesn't help much. The lens focuses through infinity on my Century, which is much thinner than the Speed.

Why won't my camera and lens work together when other peoples' do? I don't know. I do know that there is a lens-to-lens variation in focal length, even in modern lenses. There may also be a little camera-to-camera variation in bellows thickness.

Good luck and don't worry too much. Also don't worry about being a Rook. Handsome birds, eh?

Cheers,

Dan
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2001 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On this topic, I just noticed a "Horseman P spacer" for ground glass use with a Horseman 6x9 polaroid back, on eBay. This one didn't actually have the ground glass in it, but the concept is apparently one whereby this spacer can be used to pre-focus the camera using the GG before mounting the Polaroid back. Since the Horseman back will fit your camera [assuming it has the Graflok back], I think we can reasonably assume this spacer mounts the same way. Why not get a Horseman catalog for more info?
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