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Graflex Series D 4X5 Shutter malfunction and other questions
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3212
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything looks normal. A shim may have been left off on the lower roller bushing (left) side. A #2 brass flat washer can be made into a shim but it is not a problem to resolve at the moment.

Wind the curtain up to the 3/8 opening on tension 1 then slip your fingers under the curtain and continue winding up toward the 1/8 opening. When the curtain reaches its stopping point check the lower roller, it should have 1 turn of curtain bonded to it. If it has 2 or more layers of curtain on it then the curtain is stuck to itself or someone has glued it in place. What you find will determine the next step.


Billy, I had forgotten about that photo.net post.
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I did as you directed. As best as I can tell it may have just a tad more than one layer of curtain on the roller when it stops, but it is such a small area and my eyes are having difficulty even with my reading glasses on. I am afraid I won't be able to tell for sure without taking the roller out of the camera.

Also - as I was trying over and over to see in there, keeping pressure on the winding knob, it did lock in the 1/8 position. When I tripped the shutter using the lever on the left side, it would not raise the mirror all the way and therefor would not trip the shutter (I would observe the mirror reset lever and it would move, but not all the way as it does at the other aperture settings - I would have to manually move it to trip the shutter).

If I trip the shutter with the shutter trip lever on the right side of the camera, it trips fine at the 1/8 setting.
Then, when I would go to wind it to the 1/8 again it would be very difficult and not lock. I trip the shutter a few times and wind again and it will lock into the 1/8 no problem, but still will not trip using the lever on the left side near the front.

45PSS wrote:
Everything looks normal. A shim may have been left off on the lower roller bushing (left) side. A #2 brass flat washer can be made into a shim but it is not a problem to resolve at the moment.

Wind the curtain up to the 3/8 opening on tension 1 then slip your fingers under the curtain and continue winding up toward the 1/8 opening. When the curtain reaches its stopping point check the lower roller, it should have 1 turn of curtain bonded to it. If it has 2 or more layers of curtain on it then the curtain is stuck to itself or someone has glued it in place. What you find will determine the next step.


Billy, I had forgotten about that photo.net post.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3212
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone has had the wind plate off and reassembled with the top roller at least 1 roller gear tooth off.
The shutter will not release at the 1/8 setting due to the extra tension placed on the lock tab in the wind gear mechanism.

You will have to remove the H lever from the mirror shaft then remove the wind plate, reposition the gearing, reassemble and test. Set the tension to 1 and the curtain to O, mirror up or down, hold the curtain stationary, lift the wind plate off, allow the top roller to turn 1 gear tooth toward the lower roller, replace the wind plate, test, repeat if necessary. 2 screws diagonally from each other will hold the wind plate for testing.
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Charles, will let you know how it goes. Do I need to clean or lube anything while I have it apart?
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

only if it is bone dry.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how hard is it to turn the tension knob to tension 6?
same as 1 to 3 for 4 to 6 or significantly harder?
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
how hard is it to turn the tension knob to tension 6?
same as 1 to 3 for 4 to 6 or significantly harder?
It is not noticeably harder. It seems just a tad harder, but that may be because by the time I get to 6 my fingers and wrist are exhausted
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
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Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
how hard is it to turn the tension knob to tension 6?
same as 1 to 3 for 4 to 6 or significantly harder?
It is not noticeably harder. It seems just a tad harder, but that may be because by the time I get to 6 my fingers and wrist are exhausted
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at a stopping point. Thought I had a small punch but I don't, so I put a drop of oil in the hole and am going to let it sit over night. Will see if I can get a punch tomorrow.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3212
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tension is good.
The mirror shaft is brass, it will bend easily.
Heating the end of the shaft will break the corrosion bond between the steel taper pin and brass shaft making the pin easier to remove.
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Jim C.



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 what 45PSS said, heat helps, PB Blaster helps too.

Note that the mirror shaft pin is tapered, make sure you're tapping it out via the
narrow end of the pin, if you do it from the wide end you're just
jamming it in deeper.

I made a taper pin pusher, to work on my Compact Graflex since it has
two areas on the mirror shaft that's pinned. It makes things much easier
on the the shaft and you
If you're handy making tools or know of a machinist, it's easily made from
.25 thick steel.

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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I got the mirror shaft pin out (1/16th punch would not fit into the hole so I ended up grinding the punch down slightly).
I moved the upper roller 1 tooth, put the wind plat back on and it still had trouble releasing in the 1/8 position. Went 2 teeth and gave it a try and that seemed to fix it.
I got it all back together and it still will not release in the 1/8 position.
It seems to me that the "M" lever (shutter release lever behind the mirror reset lever?) acts as if it is not very smooth in its movement. Almost like it has a very slight bind that is more detectable when the curtain is wound to the 1/8 position, and a tad less detectable at the 3/8 position, and so on.

Either that, or the reflex mirror spring is to week (It just seems week to me).

When in the 1/8 position, regardless of the tension setting, when I push the shutter release lever down, I can see the "H" lever move about 1/2 to 2/3 the distance it travels at the other curtain settings, but then it stops. I can still easily push the "M" lever to finish tripping the shutter.

So, to me, it seems like either the M lever needs lubing under the wind plate, or the reflex mirror spring needs replacing or tension increased...but this is the opinion of someone who has no idea what he is doing.
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this is weird:

Curtain set at 1/8.

Press shutter release.

Mirror reset lever moves just a tad, about 1/3 to 1/2 of full open, so I reset it.

Press shutter release again, and it trips the shutter.

It does this every time. It will not trip the shutter on the first press of the shutter release after winding to 1/8, but after I reset the mirror and press the shutter release again, it worked as it is supposed to. I repeated this about 15 times and every time it did the same.

I am very confused.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3212
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2x3 R B Series B I posted about recently has a similar problem. It works fine for 10-20 shutter trips then starts not releasing the shutter at any tension or aperture. The mirror only goes up 3/4 of its travel and when it does release the lower edge of the mirror frame is in the image path.
The M lever had a lot of side play and its mount screw was staked so that there was no moving the screw so I drilled it out and put in a #2 brass machine screw, washer, and nut. That eliminated the excess play and helped a little.
I do not have a solution at this time.
I do believe you have the problem identified.
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rsweatt



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortunately, it is usable. I just have to remember when using 1/8 aperture to depress the shutter release, reset mirror, then it is ready to take the picture...unless it decides to change it's mind.

Going to load up the one film holder I have and take some pictures.

BTW, until I got it back together this afternoon, and began trying to diagnose the problem I really had no idea that it was actually the movement of the mirror shaft that tripped the shutter. So I guess what I am calling the shutter release is actually the mirror release?

Thanks for all your help.
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