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Schneider 135mm Xenar solenoid actuator

 
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Tim Povlick



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 36
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Schneider 135mm Xenar solenoid actuator Reply with quote

Greetings,

I am new to the Graflex cameras - and have a Crown Graphic Special with the Schneider 135mm Xenar lens. This site has been a wonderful resource in learning about the Graflex gear.

Having not seeing this question posed before - can the lens be setup to use the solenoid plunger. My desires is to be able to trigger the flash / lens from the flash unit itself (3D cell flash with red-button). The main impetus is to move the flash far from the camera lens, unless there is no advantage if it's far enough distant already.

The reason I ask is most pics that show the solenoid, show it is attached to a bolt in the shutter release arm and the arm swings downward. On this lens there is no bolt and the release arm makes a slight arc.

If one uses the shutter sync (M) are the contacts inside the shutter up to the task of the current passing thru them. The answer should be yes but it still seams worry some to me.

Thanks,

Tim
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3229
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_11.html pages 6 thru 9.
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Tim Povlick



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 36
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the link.

It looks like one can solenoid trip the shutter. The explanation about conversion of M to X sync has me a tad confused. I intend to use M5-B bulbs and the 5" reflector / 3D cell flash. The Synchro-Compur-D has a X or M switch.

It would seem one could use the solenoid delay to match the slow burn of the flash and trigger the flash / shutter from the red button on the flash. Would this work?

The manual seems to say one can solenoid trip and have the shutter (in X position) trip the flash. This seems a bit redundant as the red button should have triggered the flash, delayed properly by the solenoid.

I have tried the camera with a strobe flash (X) and it works just fine.

Tim
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3229
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/GrafliteManual.pdf

To use the Graflite to fire the bulb and trip the shutter set up the Graflite according to the Graflite Instruction Manual and adjust the solenoid according to http://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=1453 .

To trip the shutter via the Graflite and have the Shutter fire the strobe or flash bulb connect the Graflite to the solenoid. Connect the Graflite to the shutter's flash sync contacts and set the switch on the Graflite according to its manual and set the shutter's flash sync to X or connect the electronic flash or strobe to the shutter's flash sync contacts with the shutter's synchronizer set to X.

If the shutter has no X flash sync have it modified for X flash sync.

To manually trip the shutter and have it fire the flash bulb connect the flash to the shutter's flash sync contacts and set the shutter's synchronizer to M for M type flash bulbs, X for type F flash bulbs.

To manually trip the shutter and fire an electronic flash/strobe connect the flash to the shutter's flash sync contacts and set the shutter's synchronizer to X.

Cock and manually trip the shutter.
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Tim Povlick



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Will give it a go.

Best Regards,
Tim
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Tim Povlick



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 36
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: - Update - Reply with quote

The solenoid was mounted by a local camera shop. The guy pulled the shutter trip level in order to drill it and attach a pin for the solenoid. The result is outstanding - shutter works on all times / B and the results look good.

I tried to adjust the solenoid so as to have enough delay to match the #5B bulbs but can't get that part worked out. Rather than waste a bunch of bulbs I'll use an O'scope to look when the solenoid is pulled versus when the X terminals close. There should be about 25 m-Sec between those events.

Using a 2'nd wire from the shutter terminal (in M sync) works like a champ.

Will try the O'scope mainly from curiosity.

_ .. --
Tim
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another trick, from the more experienced and early days of this site (from memory), is to adapt a flashlight bulb to the flash socket then adjust the solenoid. The scope may prove better.
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Tim Povlick



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: o'scope results Reply with quote

Well I tried the O'scope with confusing results. The setup is a Crown Special and Graflite (3-cell) flash. The first channel of the scope was hooked directly to the solenoid output which was used to trigger the sweep of the scope in addition to the solenoid. The second channel was hooked to the strobe output of the shutter. Since the shutter is a simple switch, a battery / resistor were used so the scope would sense the voltage upon switch open / close.

From what I can determine from the schematics, as soon as one pushes the red button on the graflite the Flash and solenoid are both turned energized.

The scope display showed about a 45 m-sec delay between leading edge of solenoid being energized (switch pushed) and the strobe pulse. This is with the shutter in X mode. One can conclude it took about 45 milliseconds for solenoid / shutter delay.

With shutter in M mode, it was a bit different, there were two closures of the contacts. The first occurred about 10 m-sec after solenoid activation and the second occured at the same time slot as above (in X mode). I was a tad confused by this but I think what is happening is the shutter takes say, 40 m-sec to do it's thing. For X strobe there is no delay when shutter is open. In M mode the flash is fired 30 m-sec early to allow the bulb to ramp up. I've read M mode introduces delay to allow the flash to ramp up, but it actually fires early compared to the shutter, as one would expect. The main point is M is not a delay mode but a pre-fire mode.

In adjusting the solenoid up / down and turning the dial on top there was little effect on the timing of solenoid start versus X strobe signal. Using two wires, one for solenoid and other for the X strobe back to the flash works well / consistently so will just go with this method.

I would try the lamp method but adjustment of solenoid in the extreme didn't have much effect on timing - 5 msec or so.

_.. --
Tim
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The purpose of adjusting the solenoid is to have the solenoid trip the shutter so that the shutter reaches full open at the same instant the flash bulb reaches its peak. Refer to the solenoid adjustment link or the last pages of the Graflite manual linked previously.

From:
http://www.donsbulbs.com/bulbs/g632/l/ge1976nov/08.jpg
we get that a #5B has .011 seconds lumen seconds (usable light output) with a .020 second to peak time.

With the solenoid adjusted so that it trips the shutter at any speed dial setting with the solenoid plunger at the bottom of the solenoid the cap is turned so that the time lag from the time the red button is pressed and the X sync contacts make is .020 seconds with the shutter set to 1/30 second shutter speed.

From: http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm 1/30 second shutter speed is .0333 second.
From: http://www.photographyuncapped.com/articles/photography/iso-shutter-speeds-f-stops/ f4.5 is a third stop above f4.

135mm/(divided by) 4.5= 30mm, the diameter of the aperture opening as seen thru the lens front element. Any given shutter blade must move 15mm to go from the closed to full open position as far as the exposure is concerned. The shutter blade is traveling at .01665 second to achieve this or is traveling 1mm in .00111 second. The tripping of the shutter must be delayed by .00335 seconds from the time the bulb is fired.

In a perfectly synced shutter/solenoid that is working at perfect speed the light output of the flash bulb will be usable from .0145 seconds after being fired to .0205 seconds after being fired.
At .0145 seconds the shutter opens to 20.09mm or f6.72 or 1 1/6 stop less than wide open.
At .0205 seconds the shutter has closed to 21mm or f 6.4 or 1 stop less than wide open.

With an adjustment range of 5 ms from the cap of the solenoid it should be easy to adjust the solenoid so that you capture the full output of the flash bulb.

graflex.org (the home page) > Articles > A Flash in the Reflector =5 articles one of which is very useful: http://graflex.org/flash/navy/

Edit: Not all shutters will operate linearly. Some will open fully quickly, stay at full open then close on a geared delay. Connect several sensors to the shutter in question and test it if the information is not available from the manufacturer.
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Tim Povlick



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 36
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the very detailed response! I should use the high speed camera from work and make a u-tube video of the shutter / flash.

I was messing with the solenoid and will have to re-adjust it per your description and the documents. The solenoid did seem to have about 5-mSec timing control so that should work out. I was hoping to not use the shutters sync output but it looks like that is not possible. Currently the shutter is out for CLA.

He (shop camera tech) was surprised I was using a Polaroid Pathfinder (he fixed the RF). When I later asked about the Crown Graphics and CLA he was really intrigued by my interest in these old cameras. When asked if I used the flash bulbs he was really floored when I answered in the affirmative; he promised to clean the internal contacts.


Thanks very much for all the help. Reading old posts from you helps bring me up to speed.

Best Regards,

Tim
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