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Shutter fabric "recoating" idea- need sanity check
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IanG



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
How do you attach them to the shutter material?

I plan to check out Golden Acrylics Fluid Color at a local store soon.
http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/color/fluid/index.php
Candidates are fluid color Bone Black #2010, Carbon Black #2040, and Matt Fluid Carbon Black #2540 based on your suggestion.


The shutters I'm restoring originally have the metal/bambo strips sewn into place using the edge of the slits folded over them. I did get my mother to sew one for me 2 or 3 years ago year, but since then I've just used impact adhesive which works just as well (my wife doesn't sew ). Modern glues are significantly better than what was available when the shutter were built.

I think given your choices I'd use the Matte Fluid Carbon Black. Of course acrylic paints from different manufacturers will vary but just looking at two shutters sat in front of me the matt curtain is much better. The matt finish is flatter, hides the weave of the fabric and more importantly seems to be more opaque. I've notices when I coat the first side it's already almost 100% light proof which isn't the case with the regular Black acrylics I've used previously.

It's worth making extra cloth as there's other useful uses. It's excellent for replacement cloth on older focus hoods, and I've used offcuts to replace the tape on dark-slides (film holders).

Ian
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JoePhoto



Joined: 13 Oct 2001
Posts: 74
Location: New England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Tried Making a Curtain..... :-( Reply with quote

I tried making a curtain out of the thinnest black material I could find, cutting it a little wider than needed and spray painting with flat black Krylon. After many coats I still had pinholes. I found some Kiwi black heel repair stuff with a sponge coating. It did the trick in blocking the holes but I gave up on that project after finding a curtain on eBay that's in nice shape with the rolls on both ends. Now I have to figure out if I need to remove one of the rolls in order to get it into the camera (the roll with the gear doesn't seem to want to go). I put this project away about a year ago and now it's time to blow off the dust and have another go at it. Off to browse the forums for info....
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3245
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now I have to figure out if I need to remove one of the rolls in order to get it into the camera (the roll with the gear doesn't seem to want to go).

I would say definitely yes but someone would come up with a Graflex/Graphic that didn't so there is a 99.999% chance you will have to. Put a wet towel or saturate the end with Pledge and allow to sit for several hours to soften the original glue. The curtain should unroll with a little persuasion, not force.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3245
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graflex 3A curtain continued:
I went to my local Michaels ( http://michaels.com/ ) and they were out of stock on the fluid matt black so I purchased a tube of heavy body acrylic carbon black #1040 http://www.goldenpaints.com//products/color/infopg.php?K=0001040 .
The curtain had an oily feel to it from the Tire Wet so I washed it in hot soapy (Dawn) water and hung it to dry. The next day I painted the cloth side with a 1:1 carbon black to water mix and hung it to dry. 3 days later the curtain was starting to feel stiff again and upon attempting to reattach to the rollers the latex contact cement did not want to stick that well and the curtain was too thick to wind completely onto the top roller, the 1/8 aperture would get stuck on the body opening.

I removed the curtain and washed it again in HOT soapy water as before to help flush out the oily residue from the Pledge and Tire Wet. The fabric paint closest to the roller ends peeled off a little and would come off completely taking the dried, cracked rubber coating with it by scraping with a finger nail. I got my 1 inch wide rigid blade putty knife (flat edge, not tapered on one side) and keeping it perpendicular to the cloth started to scrape and the paint/rubber came off in small sections or as a thick coarse sand. After doing a small section on the sink I set up a 8 inch x 18 inch piece of wall tile (marble or granite type), smooth side up, and scraped all the old rubber coating off the cloth. I had a pan of hot water close by and rewet the curtain as well as washing off each section as I went keeping the free ends rolled up as they would be on the rollers. Some of the rubber would have been fine if left on the curtain as it had softened up to usable but the curtain surface would have been very uneven potentially causing problems in winding straight on the rollers.

When scraping do not use a flexible blade scraper. Draw the scraper across or down the fabric holding it taught with one hand, keeping the blade perpendicular to the curtain as pushing it at an angle increases the chances of penetrating the cloth causing a rip or tear, and working a small area at a time.
Primary scraping was down the length of the curtain with an occasional across the width of the curtain. All scraping kept only enough pressure to keep the scraper in contact with the cloth without causing the cloth to be pulled or buckled.

A preliminary check shows some pin holes but no major flaws. I will paint the freshly cleaned side with a 1:1 to 1:1.5 mixture of the acrylic paint and add subsequent coats at higher dilutions if necessary to obtain total opaqueness applying equal coats to each side.
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IanG



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A warning from experience, some acrylic paints lose integrity if diluted, by that I mean they separate and you don't get proper binding of the acrylic even when dry. This seems to happen with the matt acrylics.

Would be a good idea yo test first.

Ian
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The directions on the tube say " To thin use Golden Mediums or water."

The curtain is now dry, very soft, and the acrylic paint is intact, no flaking, near opaque.
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IanG



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
The directions on the tube say " To thin use Golden Mediums or water."

The curtain is now dry, very soft, and the acrylic paint is intact, no flaking, near opaque.


Not all Acrylics are equal

The near opaque bit though ? One coat should be totally Opaque.

Ian
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
near opaque
=minor pin holes.
Thinned 1:.5 and painted the previously coated rubber side. Currently hanging to dry.

Something about the Tire Wet and hot water made the dead rubber easy to get off. No other chemicals involved. A few missed spots of rubber came off easily and turned to coarse sand.

Michaels acrylic paint section is set up in three levels, the Golden and Liquitex brands are level 3 paints with the Reeves you used previously a level 1 or 2 paint.

Your tips have helped!
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE:
Only the end panels of the curtain between the O opening and roller and the 1/8 slot and roller had pin holes after painting the former rubber coated side of the curtain with the 1:.5 dilution of the Golden 1040-2 Carbon Black paint. I painted those sections with a second heavy coat of the same dilution on the former rubber coated side, allowed it to cure overnight, then rolled it up as it will be on the curtain roller and left it for 2 days. The curtain does not stick to itself and is light tight.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the curtain is heavy, like the consistency of a aged curtain that is still serviceable, it is in the body, and it works but the speeds are not even close.

I found on the http://www.goldenpaints.com/ site under Heavy Body Properties "Please note: acrylics begin to harden at 15 degrees Centigrade or 59 degrees Fahrenheit, and become quite hard at temperatures below freezing. This is especially important to remember when shipping a painting in freezing conditions or when unrolling a painting that has been kept in cold storage."
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The acrylic paint was too thick so it required very high initial tension and regardless of knob setting I had only one speed per aperture opening.

I soaked the curtain for 2 to 3 minutes per section in lacquer thinner which turned the paint to a soft gel that came off easily with the rigid putty knife blade held 90 degrees to the curtain with only enough pressure to keep the blade in firm contact with the curtain. The curtain was soaked in a glass baking dish and laid out on a flat board for scraping. Immediately after removing the paint from the length of the curtain it was washed in hot soapy water, rinsed and hung to dry. The lacquer thinner is not harming the cloth.

Tulip soft matt ivory fabric paint sealed as well as the acrylic and was only slightly more flexible than the acrylic and gave the same results in camera as the acrylic so it off to work out the coating technique or make a new curtain.
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IanG



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I stressed working the acrylic paint into the fabric and wiping off the excess was the thickness. This also affects the suppleness.

The shutters I restore rely totally on tension as they have a fixed slit width, normally full - as used for Time exposures, focussing etc. I've not had a flexibility issue affecting the range of speeds.

I've done a lot of testing and experimenting as I make bellows cloth as well so I've tried various acrylic paints, all are much the same once applied, all the fabric paints are acrylic, The only variations are the matt paints which must contain a filler powder and this seems to give slightly better flexibility.

I have an original formula from the 1890's for shutter cloth sealer, this is a form of flexible colloidon but personally I wouldn't use it for shutter restoration as it will age and flake, this would pre-date the rubberised cloths.

A thought on acrylics is the kitchen/bathroom type flexible sealer these are available in black but would be harder to apply.

Ian
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well thinning the fabric matt ebony down, painting each solid section, allowing the section to set 3 minutes then wiping with a paper towel resulted in a slightly more flexible curtain BUT no change in shutter speeds.

On to adapting to 120mm film and verifying the speed test with film.
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jamie young



Joined: 08 Nov 2011
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Location: Syracuse, NY

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: continuing the curtain discussion Reply with quote

I just picked up a Series C graflex, and am trying to get it working, and have read over this series of pages to figure the best way of revitalizing the shutter curtain on the camera. It seems there are various ways of going about it, all with some problems. The plastidip is an option, but builds too rapidly making the curtain too thick and doesn't do much for the gaps left by the spots of original peeled rubber with a lot of coats which then make the curtain too thick. The acrylic paint hardens, especially in cold. What are the most successful options people have had since that last post . Not sure what my best choices are. The camera was in really great shape overall, other than sitting around unused for many years. While sitting around the curtain pretty much suck to itself. I was able to carefully unstick it, and have scraped most all of the rubber that stuck to the fabric off. The fabric is a little dry but has retained it's physical integrity. I would like to get the camera back to shooting condition. Thanks in advance.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started using Golden Carbon Black Artist paint diluted 1:1 with water and painting two coats waiting a day between coats with no problems or complaints from others that I serviced their cameras this way.
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