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is it possible to use 3x4 film in 4x5 crown graphics camera?
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dkt



Joined: 26 Feb 2002
Posts: 32
Location: se usa

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]
On 2002-04-08 20:37, tracie68 wrote:
>>>> I have been tossing about the concept of buying tripod dollys to stabilize the tripod legs and prevent them from moving in when bumped.

Hmm...I use Manfrottos, nothing wrong with them if they're the right size. It's not just the tripod though, you need a good tripod head as well. Instead of the tripod dollys, maybe try taping the position of the legs to the floor. maybe even taping the legs *to* the floor. I tape the spots of lightstands, tripods etc. to our studio floor with gaffer tape...you know an X on the floor in the spot where they are...in case they get knocked out of position. I do this on critical shots or when alot of people are traipsing around the studio not paying attention....it's for their "protection" from me.....

>>>> MohrPro processor... what would you like to know?

Oh, I was just wondering if you liked it, that's all...sounds like maybe you do. I've been thinking of buying one someday. I use 2 processors of that variety, but not made by Mohr. I've heard good things about them....


>>> I do not snadwich my t55 neg. I use it as is in a beseler 4x5 carrier.

Okay, you don't have to, but if you did, it might help you use less filtration or get better consistency, becuase the orange layer of a color negative actually works like a built-in filter. It helps the filters in the enlarger work better....b&w negs are not exactly meant to print on color papers....a general recomendation for a "neutral" tone (ha!--this will depend on everything from the chemistry, the paper to the age of the lightbulb in the enlarger) for a b&w neg only on color paper is about 120Y and 90M.

>>>>>> cyan to about 30 if my memory is correct and the magenta is around 125 (???) and my yellow is around 130 (????)

Okay, I don't want to confuse you, but in color printing you usually try not to use Cyan at all. You can do about everything without using cyan. Cyan is frowned upon for various reasons....for doing brown tones with b&w negs, use Magenta and Yellow only....to ADD red, Subtract Magenta and Yellow. To ADD yellow, subtract yellow from the pack. The actual starting filter pack though, will be determined by tesing the paper & whatver the manufacturer recommends to start with...they usually print this someplace on the box itself. It will be weird for a b&w neg only, so don't expect it to match up....

If you find yourself using all 3 colors, you can subtract the lesser of the three out completely and then take it's value off the other two...so in your case, with 30 points of cyan? Take that away to 0. The remaining pack would be 95M and 100Y. The thing to remember besides not using cyan if you can help it, is that when you have all 3 colors like that, you are building a "neutral density" filter...meaning all 3 will cut the light output of the enlarger. Usually you try not to work this way.

(note: somebody feel free to correct me, I'm a better b&w printer than color...believe me)

>>> Problem is no 2 browntone pictures are the exact same tones.

If you can get the exposures hammmered down on the polaroid films, you *may* get a little more consistency--if the Mohr is kept running with fresh chemistry & on temp etc. If you do it the old fashioned way (which I first thought maybe you did), with toners after the processing chemistry--that's really hard to match. But there are lots of variables both ways....


>>>>thanks again


Sure...good luck, you'll get it sooner or later if you can take some time & afford to waste some materials! Pay attention to what works & what doesn't....

KT

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[ This Message was edited by: dkt on 2002-04-09 11:29 ]
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the cyan. all your doing is cutting down on the output of the enlarger.

The reference to the inconsistant brown tones was with B&W chemicals and Sepia toner. With color chemicals running true, the only variable for your brown tone will be the density of the neg,

While not an absolute, you might want to think about using a sheet of color film. This will get you into the ballbark with the filtration much faster.

The rule of thumb I was taught when color printing is, if you want less of something, say yellow. You"Take it out of the print and put it in the enlarger" so if I want 10points less yellow, I take it out of the print and add it to the filter pack in the enlarger."
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tracie68



Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had wondered about the cyan thing. I never got the chance to try out the differences today as I spent the entire day cleaning and fixing. Plus my boss finally had time to talk with me about everything. So I put off my test for another day and while I am at it I am going to dial the cyan to 0 and bring the others down the same amount and then print. May as well change my bulb too as I will undoubtably have to mess with the dials a bit to get my richer browntones that I strive for. Everytime I change the bulb I end up going thru the elimination process to get the tone just right. (again I am sure it is my lack of knowledge creating issues as well as the misinformation I was given when I first started there.) But now that I am on the right track and am learning how things are SUPPOSED to be, thanks to you guys.
As for taping off the floor... I have considered that before too. And may be just what I end up doing despite the fact that it may look pretty strange to the public eye. But if it works... why not? I got the go ahead to fix our cameras and order what ever I need to order. As well as the responsibility to take over the store completely which apparently means I have proven myself and have made great strides in his eyes. So now my job gets a little harder and I get a little tougher with my crew. I am still thinking about taking a tech course on photography... I think I can learn so much for myself and my profession by doing so.
Yes I do like using the MohrPro. It is really easy to use and if something does go wrong it is pretty easy to fix. Plus Mohr Enterprises is a top notch company. Very helpful and prompt with replacement parts when you need them. Of course it is the only one I have ever used so I have nothing to compare it to.

Tracie
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dkt



Joined: 26 Feb 2002
Posts: 32
Location: se usa

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, good luck, sounds like you're on your way...the bulb in the Beseler Dichro 45S head (is that what you're using??) will last a long time...when it goes, it will go fast...every time you change it or switch to a new emulsion batch of paper, you'll have to fine-tune your filter pack...I've always found color printing to be a finicky, PIA process to be honest with you....

The actual color balance of those final prints will look different in different types of lightsources as well...so if your customers view the prints under different lights in the showroom or on the floor? You need to color balance under those conditions too. Do whatever you have to do to make the prints look the same as the moment they pick them up....with a brown tone, this won't be as big a deal as a color print though, but the tone of the print may look warmer or cooler under different types of lighting---like tungsten, fluorescent or daylight....just take a print and walk around your shop and observe the changes....(fwiw, even a b&w print will do this)

Thanks for the info on the Mohr...I've used several roller transport processors over the years, but the thing that I would look for the most now in getting one would be customer service and availability of parts. It looks like you can get them fixed asap and the processors are made in the US and not just imported here...that's the thing people don't realize about those machines...they're like a car...they will break down, only it's a matter of time.....I could tell you some bad stories of broken machines down for a month waiting on parts or ones that just weren't designed well to begin with--made by big name manufacturers....it's the service that counts in the end.

good luck...

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tracie68



Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to the camera repair shop today as well as the camera company to pick up my paper. While at the camera company I looked at the different tripod heads and found one that may work for me. I also seen the tripod dolly and really like the mobility as well as stability that would give me. Not sure my boss is going to want to spend the $150.00 for one though. Am going to do some searching online for less expensive ones to purchase. I looked for those books you told me about but had no luck there. Will keep trying though.

And I agree 100% with color printing being a PITA. Bigtime. but I like the warmth of the browntones. So for now will just keep on plugging away at it. It has been about a year since I replaced the last bulb in my beseler 45S. I figure it is not done for as of yet but would rather get the new one in and all settled before the busy season starts than to wait for it to go on me and then have to fight with it.

Have you ever gone to MohrPro's website? It has alot of info as well as a statement declaring tech info free to all who own a mohrpro regardless of where they bought it. Which I think is pretty decent.

well I have a few more things to do so I best get doin them.

thanks for the info and help. I wish I would have discovered this place a long time ago.

Tracie
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dkt



Joined: 26 Feb 2002
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Location: se usa

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't those books, there are lots of other good ones...the Horenstein books, all 3--there's another, "Beyond basic Photography", are good beginner's books becuase they're easy to read & concise...but you can't go wrong with Kodak books either. Even the Color Dataguide they put out, a little spiral bound hadnbook, might be all you need. This is great reference for a darkroom.

I have been to the Mohr site, and will probably order a catalog or something...I'm curious about the straight-thru processors v.s. the deeptank models.

p.s....If you wanted to run b&w chemistry in the processor, you can...b&w RC paper will run at the same times & temps as RA4 color. Just different chemistry. We do warmtones & sepia prints using an Ilford 2150 processor and do the toning outside of the machine in trays using either Kodak Sepia toners, or Agfa Viradon (brown toner), or Kodak Selenium toner. We then rewash the print in a tray with a siphon, and use a heat dryer. It takes about 10-15 minutes to turn around a print this way, so it's not as fast as a color processor. BUT, the prints will probably be more stable over the long haul...although some color papers are pretty good now compared to RC b&w. FWIW, if we don't tone, we can get a print in less than a minute, dry.

I use Ilford Multigrade Warmtone RC for the sepia prints...works great.

Good luck & thanks for sharing your experiences with the Mohr....

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tracie68



Joined: 27 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can not thank you guys enough for the help you have given me. I am eternally greatful! Everything is going good for the most part. Eliminating the cyan out of my filters has done wonders. Lowered my printing time by at least half (meaning I get the same results printing an 8x10 by exposing it for only 4.5 seconds compared to 8.0+ before with the cyan added) My Mohr Pro is running smooth now as well since thanks to the tech department... more specifically Jim Jackson... who guided me thru everything and got me up and running at the right temps and speeds... which I am sure contributed to the ability to expose the paper for less timeand still acheive good color. I even sent my cameras in for a "check-up", 2 came back last week and I pick up the other 2 today. But here is where I am now having problems and am totally at a loss as to what is going on... (btw I now set the asa to 25 and am happy with results all the way around )... anyways... since getting the 2 stand-by cameras back last week and using them while the frequently used ones are being overhauled we have been getting funky results with the back-up cameras. Half of the picture is in focus perfectly while the other half is not. I have been making sure the camera is as square with the wall as I can get it so that we have focus all the way across the camera from left to right and that is working perfectly BUT now I am dealing with a new problem... the top is in focus and the bottom half is not. And vice versa... if the bottom half is in focus the top half is not. When focusing the camera in I make sure both the top and the bottom are in focus before I close the shutter and take the portrait but one or the other is always coming out blurry. Any ideas? I have checked and double checked everything to make sure it is all set correctly and it all seems to be. It does not seem to matter whether or not I have the camera set horizontally or vertically. So that could mean it is an issue with the film &/or film holder right???? It is very frusterating as you can imagine. As long as my customer's faces are in focus I have not been stressing too much about it but we have never had this problem before so I am at a complete loss. Any and all help is greatly aprriciated!!! Thanks again guys for everything. You have been a lifesaver. (OK that may be over doing it a bit but I am so very greatful for everything. Thanks again!!!)
anxiously awaiting any & all replies~
Tracie
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I can not thank you guys enough for the help you have given me. I am eternally greatful!'

Okay you owe every body that posted lunch.


You've alread figure out you've got an alignment problem, now lets track down where it's coming from.

The idea is to change one item at a time and check to see if there's a change.

One of the things that concerns me is that you can't see it on the ground glass. If this is really true than the problem MUST be with the holder. for some reason the holder is not seating properly.

Mini mag lights are great. If you can round up a few it'll make things much more accurate. If not make a target out of a piece of paper say 8" square. fold it twice so you have 4 4" squares now make the diagonal squares black (It's a snap on a computer) put these near the corners of the scene in the room.

Make sure you can see them in the camera and they are brightly lit, Or remove the heads from the mini mags and clamp/tape them in place. This gives us a very sharp edge to check focus with.

double check the ground glass and see if you can get all four targets in focus. If you can great, if not see below.

With all four targets in focus. LOCK the focus so it cant move! and becareful not to bump the tripod. Expose as normal and check the Polaroid. Write on the Polaroid what exposure this is--First, no changes.

Now switch Polaroid backs and try again. did anythign change? If not then it's the camera. If it is then look at the brass rail clamps on the P'back sometimes they didn't get put on all the way and may cause the back to be pulle out slightly.

Camera alignment. There are several places where things can get out of plane with a camera. If the out of focus is side to side when horizontal, then it could be the ground glass isn't seating properly against the camera body.

There is an adjust ment in the front that allows the lens to tilt upwards, this could have gotten bumped. Loosen the knob near the bottom of the standard and make sure the lensboard is perpendicular.

With the next set up check with a small torpedo level (Stanley makes a neat cheap level that can be cut so it fits the ground glass $3-5). check to make sure the ground glass is plumb, that the lens is plumb. With the targets focused and those two things aligned run another Polaroid.

If it's still out of focus at the top or bottom. Rotate the the lens 180 Try again. If the area out of focus changed, then the lens is out of alignment with itself and needs help. Try a different lens and check again.



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dkt



Joined: 26 Feb 2002
Posts: 32
Location: se usa

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...I'm with Les on this, but I'm leaning towards the front standard--the lens--being tilted. But what puzzles me, is that you say it doesn't seem to matter if the camera is vertical or horizontal..

If the camera was horizontal, the focus would shift across the top or bottom i.e. a "tilt"....in a vertical position, this is like a "swing" on a speed graphic....if you were shooting with the camera mounted on it's side--vertical--this setting, a swing, would shift the focus from side to side...not top to bottom.

So..something's messed up....when you say either the top or the bottom are out of focus, as Les says--can you see it clearly on the groundglass? Or are these elements really the foreground and the background??--not exactly on the same plane to begin with....because in a way, it sounds like a depth of field problem as well...

Glad you got your printing problems sorted out though....
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tracie68



Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheeseburgers and fries at the local pub ok with you guys?

I thought about the lensboard being tilted too and I checked it all to make sure it is where it is supposed to be. Now this camera was one of the "back-up" cameras and as such there was one that was kinda messed up but the previous manager never said what was wrong with it nor did he label it as a problematic one so this could very well be that particular camera and the lens could well be messed up but even that doesn't really make any sense to me since it is not consistent when I go vertical. (the bottom half which is blurry does not turn into the side half... etc...) which is why I was leaning towards maybe the ground glass having issues or maybe the Graflok back being off center or something. When I looked thru the ground glass and use my magnifying scope I focus on the peoples faces but also scan around to make sure nothing else is totally out of whack focus wise and all looks good when I go to close up the camera and take the photo. I am aware of the focal plane and how I have to have my subjects all on the same plane or very close to it so all are in focus and when doing that normally, their legs and feet end up in focus as well. But now their faces and upper torso's are in focus but the legs and feet are blurry. The background is usually always just a hair out of focus which is completely normal and fully understandable. But when their faces and their feet are parallel but one is in focus and the other is out... well that just plain confuses me. So I am going to go ahead and do those tests Les was talking about and will go by process of elimination until I finally figure it all out. By mini-mag lights you are talking those cool little flash lights right? I will have to pick me up a couple since they will work for other things as well as testing purposes.
So with all that said... just let me know when ya want to go grab that burger, k?
Tracie
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3196
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An old field trick; tie a weight (sand bag or simular) to the bottom of the center colum to increase stability. Weight should be 5 to 10 pounds. Drill a hloe 1/4 inch diamater 1/4 to 1/2 inch from bottom of colum and suppend weight like a pendilum.

If standard (front) locks are worn then it may be shifting when shutter release cable is depressed, if you are useing the len's shutter.

Charles

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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2002 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracie,

What kind of camera is this back up camera? Can you rotate the back without rotating the whole camera?

If it's a non rotating back camera then I'm stumped, because if the feet are out of focus at horizontal and you flip the entire camera, (the lens, the back and the front all move) and it still leaves the feet fuzzy, then the people have to have fuzzy feet!!!
Because everything rotated, all of the elements are in the same relationship to each other as they were at horizontal.

Now if you just rotated the back and the feet are still fuzzy then we can eliminate the Polaroid back and the ground glass. It has to be up front with the lens or the way the lens is mounted or camera movements. Try switching lenses or rotating that lens and see what happens.
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tracie68



Joined: 27 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I rotate the camera I do it on the tripod head... I just twist the handle and go vertical... the back is a Graflok and does not rotate... the entire camera goes vertical or horizontal on the tripod. I am going to run some of the tests that you guys described to me and see what I come up with. I will take my digital camera to work with me and take pics of the cameras and all that stuff. Maybe I could explain things better if I could show you what I am talking about. Have the day off today but will be going in to hang up the freshly dry cleaned costumes and will do a few tests if time allows me to. Will post results when I get back home.

Tracie
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