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2x3 Wide angles and other back packing trivia
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a 180 dagor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/GOERZ-DAGOR-180mm-Compur-Lens-4x5-5x7-4x10-8x10-MINT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43479QQihZ015QQitemZ250370134255QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVWQQsalenotsupported

At 6.8 it comes close to your 6.3 speed. It's actually brighter than other lenses of the same f stop because it doesn't have any air spaces inside. It's probably lighter, and certainly smaller than a Symmar S.
And should you ever move up to 5x7 format, it'll cover that too.

Les

There's nothing wrong with a Tele Arton either.
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renes



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Warsaw

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For tele I would prefer a brigter lens (wide ones will already have f/6.3 stop)

There are also Xenar/Wollensak Optar 162mm f/4.7 and Kodak Ektar 152mm f/4.5 a bit shorter focal than 180mm but accaptable. They are rather old and can not find much about their quality and sharpnes...
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then about the only lenses I know of that fit your bill are the Tele-Xenar and tele-Artons. Everything else I can think of, you've found fault with.

I wish you well.

Les
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renes



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Warsaw

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you again for your help.

For wide angle I am almost decided to look for and buy Mamiya Sekor 50/6.3 and Kodak Ektar WF 80/6.3.

For tele I am not sure yet but I do not have to decide now. I found Rodenstock Sinar Sironar lenses (180mm and 210mm f5.6) and they look not so big. There is also Schneider Tele-Arton 180/4 and was made for 6x9! and older Schneider Xenar 180/4.5 with Copal and is very small.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1891
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renes, since you're in Warsaw I expect that your native language is Polish. I don't know any slavic language, so don't know whether any of them makes the distinction between long focus and telephoto lenses we make in English.

When we say long focus lens, we mean simply a lens whose focal length is longer than the normal focal length for the format it is being used on. So, for example, a 152 Ektar is a long focus lens on 2x3 (in metric, 6x9), whose normal focal length is 100 mm.

When we say telephoto lens we mean a lens whose flange-to-film distance when focused at infinity is usefully less than its focal length. I'm not sure there's a well-defined (f-to-f/focal length) ratio that separates telephoto lenses from the rest, but lenses that are called telephotos typically have that ratio no greater than 0.8.

Not all lenses are sold as telephotos really are. I used to have a cine lens, a 500/5.6 Century Tele-Athenar II, that was really just an achromatic doublet at the front of a very long tube.

I bring this up because my little Century Graphic will focus a 180/6.3 Saphir with no difficulty. If you want a 180, any 180 tessar type should work for you and will shoot better on 2x3 than a Tele-Xenar, Tele-Arton, Rotelar, ...

The Century's limit with no "tricks" is around 200 mm. People have reported using 203/7.7 Ektars on Centuries with the remark that doing so requires that the bellows be extended more than makes them comfortable. The longest lens I use on my Century is a 10.16"/9 tessar type Taylor Hobson Copying lens, but some tricks are involved.

About your need for a fast lens. There are good photographic reasons to want a fast lens -- the ability to use high shutter speeds, selective focus -- but focusing and composing on the ground glass is easy with long slow lenses. If you don't believe me, try it.
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renes



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Warsaw

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, thank's for explanation. I learn a lot reading forum and this subject as well, my Century is the first view GG camera I own and that there are some new issues for me. As I wrote I will use my Century mostly for landsape photography and only with 6x9 rollback, and need to chose good lenses but very sharp and not too big and heavy (love photographing mountains). From I have read and from recomendations I am convinced to buy Kodak Ektar WF 80/6.3, Tessar/Xenar/Heliar 180/4.5 or 5.6 and Mamiya Sekor 50/6.3. But Sekor 50mm is bayonet lens and ring focusing type I wonder how it can be fit to lens board and if the lens is not too big (I have dpf brochure Mamiya Press lenses but there is no diamensions of the lenses), and where to focus on lens scale - on infinity?

This lens was recommended a few times on forum but it seems non of Century & Crown 23 users have it.

Dan Fromm wrote:
(...) About your need for a fast lens. There are good photographic reasons to want a fast lens -- the ability to use high shutter speeds, selective focus -- but focusing and composing on the ground glass is easy with long slow lenses. If you don't believe me, try it.


How is it possible??? Bether with f/8 lens than with f/4?


Last edited by renes on Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1891
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renes,

About Mamiya Press lenses. Its a while since I've handled one and I've never owned one, but I have a couple of catalogs. I believe that the lenses are attached to the focusing helical in the normal LF way. That is, the rear of the shutter is held to the front of the helical by a retaining ring and the rear cell is threaded into the shutter. The only connection between the lens assembly (lens plus helical) is the cam on the helical that drives the rangefinder.

To mount one of the lenses on, say, a Century Graphic, remove it from its focusing helical by unscrewing the rear cell and then unscrewing the retaining ring. Then attach the front (shutter + front cell) to a lens board and screw the rear cell in. I don't know what size shutter the 50/6.3 Mamiya is in. If a #0, you can buy a board drilled that size from eBay.com seller canyonlandgraphics. I've bought three of their boards. They're not as pretty as Graflex' own boards, but they work and cost much less than a "proper" board and drilling.

I have a 12"/4 TTH Telephoto and a couple of 300 and 305 mm f/9 and f/10 lenses. The f/4 is easier to focus; it is very bright and has quite narrow depth of field when wide open. The f/9s and f/10s of the same focal length aren't as bright and have more depth of field wide open. Even so I find them very easy to focus on the GG. Wide angle lenses are much more difficult to focus.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Fromm wrote:
Then attach the front (shutter + front cell) to a lens board and screw the rear cell in.


... and start cursing because Mamiya mostly used shutters without cable release socket, instead having a socket safely placed at the grip side of the helicoid front. A matching shutter with cable release socket should be easier to find than a useful cable release attachment for socketless shutters.

Sevo
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1891
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sevo, thanks for that news. I'd thought, in my innocence, that only Graflex XL lenses were so, um, unkindly mounted. No one else could have been so cruel.
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renes



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Warsaw

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did it know it too. Sadly, I have to count out this lens from my list... and look for another wide 50-55mm lens.

Hope to find used cheap Rodenstock 55mm f/4,5 Grandagon-N :D

Just checked that Rodenstock 55mm f/4,5 Grandagon-N rear element diameter is 51mm and it knocks against the belows.. :cry:
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't give up, the last generation 50mm's should have a cable release socket on the shutter itself, and besides, even if you get an older one or other focal length, you can transfer it to another shutter (IIRC a standard size 0, which is not hard to come by).

Sevo
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renes



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Warsaw

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last 50mm's lenses have cable release socket. But all this Sekor lenses do not have "T". Someone suggested I would have to use B and hold the button down on the lens (or by use a locking cable release) while focusing on the gg. Can it work?

btw, Mamiya press lenses are bayonet type, isn't this disqualify them for using on Century lens board and bellows?
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could use a locking cable release, yes - but at least the older Sekor lenses have a workaround T setting where you can open and lock the cocked lens with an extra lever.

Mamiya press lenses are on a bayonet mounted helical. You'd have to remove the shutter/lens assembly from the helical, of course - apart from not having a matching mount, mounting the lens complete with barrel would leave you without enough lens board to film depth.

Sevo
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renes



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Warsaw

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sevo,

This 50mm Sekor lens probably never had T settings. I have seen a few and all had only B set. Later I will attach a few pictures I found.

My new Century does not let me sleep because of the lenses

It is hard to find Kodak Wide Field Ektar 80/6.3 which for sure covers 6x9. I have to look at other 80mm lenses, particularly:

Schneider Symmar 80/5.6
Schneider Xenotar 80/2.8
Rodenstock Heligon 80/2.8

Schneider vintage lens spec for Xenotar and Symmar says the lenses covers 6x7. It seems they sholud cover Graphic 23 roll filmback which in fact is 6x8... almost covers, but when closing the lens to f/22, sholud they cover it, what do you think? I want to be sure before buying one...

I could not find out if Rodenstock Heligon 80/2.8 also covers 6x7, which is probably the sharpest one.

renes
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1891
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piotr, "6x9" is a very poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 3.25" (57 mm x 82 mm). Both sizes are in fact the same.

"6x7" is a very poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 2.75".

With cameras that use 120 film, metric nominal frame sizes are all larger than actual.

The normal lens for 2x3 (US abbreviation for 2.25x3.25) is 4" (100 mm). The normal lens for nominal 6x7 is 90 mm.

Per Schneider (see http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/fachoptik_e.pdf ), the 80/5.6 Symmar covers 111 mm at f/16. The 80/2.8 Xenotar covers 91 mm, will just barely cover nominal 6x7. The Heligon is very similar to the Xenotar.

About 80/6.3 WF Ektars. Watch www.ebay.com, and eventually you'll get one. Since you're in Europe, watch www.ebay.de for an 80/6.3 Weitwinkel Aristostigmat (post-WWII, coated) in shutter. Based on my 100/6.3 WW Aristostigmat in barrel, the 80 will be usable but not as good as an 80 WF Ektar.
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