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GVII and long lens help?

 
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to get a couple lenes for my GVII. Just like my Crown/Speed, I'd like something around a 250mm and a 360mm. Problem is coverage that I really didn't have to worry about with the Crown/Speed.
I know about (and want) a Commercial Ektar 10", but they're getting a bit pricey. I can't afford any of the newer lenses and am hoping for some suggestions here.
Can the View II use a 375mm, or is that pushing it a bit too far? What can I get in the lower dollar range in the 360mm area? Is there a decent alternative to the Ektar 10" in the 250mm range? Do any of the older 'tele' long lenses really cover 4x5 with movements?
I can't find the coverage of any of the older lenses and there doesn't seem to be enough of them around to say, go to KEH and see what they have listed as '8x10'.
Any suggestions would be very appreciated!
Rich...
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-12 22:19, RichS wrote:
I'd like to get a couple lenes for my GVII. Just like my Crown/Speed, I'd like something around a 250mm and a 360mm. Problem is coverage that I really didn't have to worry about with the Crown/Speed.
I know about (and want) a Commercial Ektar 10", but they're getting a bit pricey. I can't afford any of the newer lenses and am hoping for some suggestions here.
Can the View II use a 375mm, or is that pushing it a bit too far? What can I get in the lower dollar range in the 360mm area? Is there a decent alternative to the Ektar 10" in the 250mm range? Do any of the older 'tele' long lenses really cover 4x5 with movements?
I can't find the coverage of any of the older lenses and there doesn't seem to be enough of them around to say, go to KEH and see what they have listed as '8x10'.
Any suggestions would be very appreciated!
Rich...


TeleOptars, if you want to use relatively inexpensive old lenses. 250 (10"), 380 (15"). Both cover 4x5, both are supposed to be ok lenses. I'm not sure about movements, but I'm also not sure whether they're worth much with long lenses. My ignorance speaking, I fear.

Or, more modern tele lenses.

Re using a long focus 375, I thought the GV II had 17" of bellows. How close will you have to focus?

Cheers,

Dan
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a search on mpex and they didn't have anything reasonable in your focal lenghth. ebay has this
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1332422293

which doesn't soun too bad. Carl Meyer had a good reputation.

The Tel-optars will cover 4x5 with movements, but at a price. The way teles work is they take a relatively short lens say a 7" and add a NEGATIVE element to the back. usually 1.4x This disperses the image so that what went on 4x5 now is seen on 5x7, but you "crop'" the 5x7 image to 4x5 so it looks closer. You get the bellows draw of a 7 inch lens, and the image of a 10" lens. What you don't get is the image quality of a true 10 inch lens.

The 15" tele will cover 8x10, however the image made on that 8x10 won't be near as sharp at the edges as you'd like. On 4x5 it's adequate, to good.

I guess you've figured out, once you get about 10" you really are in the 8x10 format and the lenses are designed for that size camera. You could look at barrel lenses, but putting them in a shutter will get pricey and trying to slip a packard the right size and get it all to fit on a GV will be awkward at best. I bought a 10" f4.5 tessar in barre for $75. But it's the size of a soft ball and there wouldn't be much of a 4" lensboard left if you tried to mount it in one.

Protars are another possibility, these were sold in pairs and you either bought two of the same size for speed or you bought two of a different focal lenght to make a convertable lens. One of cells made was a 35cm, but I don't know how well these would work on 4x5 once you tried to blow it up.

the last possiblity is an older convertable symmar. I'm not sure of the configuration but I think it was a 210/385. I'm not sure what these are going for but it might be your best value (price/quality)

I just looked at KEH.com and they have a 180/315 conv symmar for 159.00

_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison

[ This Message was edited by: Les on 2002-02-13 06:32 ]
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at the Meyer and wondering if the seller was correct. And hoping it stayed in my financial range

That's very interesting about the tele's. They figured out an easy way to create a tele and we suffer the resolution. I have a 15" tele-Optar for my Crown. There, I thought it was a great lens, although it does stretch the bellows a bit. It does almost cover the View. Shifts & swings look okay. But if you add rise, you can actually see the image circle at the bottom. It would do me for a while but I'd have to take some photos with it to judge it's quality (haven't even used it yet on the Crown).
I also do have a Com.Ektar 10" and just love it! Unfortunately when I bought my Speed, I didn't have the extra cash on hand so I picked up one with a LOT of cleaning marks. It's not a good looking lens... But it still takes an acceptable photo. It's my first choice for the View, but the prices have gone up quite a bit lately.
The Protar's seem a bit odd, but I don't think I've ever seen one available (or didn't notice?). I've thought of the Symmar's also but didn't think they had such decent quality? Have to admit that I would like one just because of it's functionality and age. I'll keep an eye open for both and see if I can find a deal. Sometimes I'll go for something on the odd side more than practical, or at least that's what people say about me
I suppose that I'll have to chain down my impulses and wait to find something that will work instead of jumping on something that _might_ work and do some more research into 8x10 lenses. It's just too bad that noone has catalogged the old lenses into nice tables like they've done for the newer models. But then maybe the costs would go up too? The smart thing to do would be to wait for a good deal on another Com.Ektar or just pay the going rate and be happy & broke
Thanks for all the info and suggestions. Gives me something else to look for and made me fit that tele-optar to the view to find out what it would really do The large shutters don't work well with the adpater boards...
Rich...
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Expectations vs. Experience...

I have just come to relaize that maybe I was ecpecting too much out of a lens? After trying a few lenses on the View, I relized that I had never put the Commercial Ektar 10" on it to see what I was judging against...

What a surprise! It won't do full forward tilt and full front rise at all. Not even close, and not much better than the 15" tele-Optar! Both lenses easily cover the swings & shifts in all combinations. But do a full front tilt and then add rise and they run out of circle. The Ektar only does a bit better than the tele-optar, but less than a half inch or so of movement. Overall, not much.

There's no comparison of quality here, but it sure speaks well of the old Optar lenses and nowadays you could get two optars for the cost of the ektar... (okay, and maybe half the quality?) But if I was happy with the optar on the Speed, then why not of the View? For now anyway...

So, what do people do when they need full tilt and full rise? Or is that why some lenses go for 10 times as much as an old ektar? I guess I'll be 'suffering' for a while
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 10" f6.3 commercial ektar is a Tessar and according to Kodak, it has a recomended format of 6x8.

Compare that to a 10"f6.3 wide field ektar that is of a double gauss design (four miniscus lenses) and the coverage jumps to 11x14 without movements.

The mounting hole also jumps from 2 5/8" to 3 33/8" so there won't be a lot of lensboard left for your GV

Yo might want to look at a 10 or 12" dagor. Dagors have great coverage for their focal lenght-- about 1.4 times, so an 8.5 inch will just cover 8x10. Just don't let you wife see the price tag of what your' lookin at.

_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison

[ This Message was edited by: Les on 2002-02-13 11:56 ]
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2002 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-13 06:27, Les wrote:
I did a search on mpex and they didn't have anything reasonable in your focal lenghth. ebay has this
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1332422293

which doesn't soun too bad. Carl Meyer had a good reputation.

The Tel-optars will cover 4x5 with movements, but at a price. The way teles work is they take a relatively short lens say a 7" and add a NEGATIVE element to the back. usually 1.4x This disperses the image so that what went on 4x5 now is seen on 5x7, but you "crop'" the 5x7 image to 4x5 so it looks closer. You get the bellows draw of a 7 inch lens, and the image of a 10" lens. What you don't get is the image quality of a true 10 inch lens.

The 15" tele will cover 8x10, however the image made on that 8x10 won't be near as sharp at the edges as you'd like. On 4x5 it's adequate, to good.

I guess you've figured out, once you get about 10" you really are in the 8x10 format and the lenses are designed for that size camera. You could look at barrel lenses, but putting them in a shutter will get pricey and trying to slip a packard the right size and get it all to fit on a GV will be awkward at best. I bought a 10" f4.5 tessar in barre for $75. But it's the size of a soft ball and there wouldn't be much of a 4" lensboard left if you tried to mount it in one.

Protars are another possibility, these were sold in pairs and you either bought two of the same size for speed or you bought two of a different focal lenght to make a convertable lens. One of cells made was a 35cm, but I don't know how well these would work on 4x5 once you tried to blow it up.

the last possiblity is an older convertable symmar. I'm not sure of the configuration but I think it was a 210/385. I'm not sure what these are going for but it might be your best value (price/quality)

I just looked at KEH.com and they have a 180/315 conv symmar for 159.00

_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison

[ This Message was edited by: Les on 2002-02-13 06:32 ]
Les! How could you? According to the guys on rec.photo.equipment.large-format, Carl Meyer was Burke & James' house brand and the lenses were uniformly very bad. The name Carl Meyer, they say, wass cobbled up from parts of Carl Zeiss (well known, good stuff) and Hugo Meyer (ditto) to catch unobservant suckers. The lenses, they say, were cobbled up from odds and ends of post-WWII gov't surplus.

Cheers,

Dan
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2002 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-13 11:10, RichS wrote:
Expectations vs. Experience...

I have just come to relaize that maybe I was ecpecting too much out of a lens? After trying a few lenses on the View, I relized that I had never put the Commercial Ektar 10" on it to see what I was judging against...

What a surprise! It won't do full forward tilt and full front rise at all. Not even close, and not much better than the 15" tele-Optar! Both lenses easily cover the swings & shifts in all combinations. But do a full front tilt and then add rise and they run out of circle. The Ektar only does a bit better than the tele-optar, but less than a half inch or so of movement. Overall, not much.

There's no comparison of quality here, but it sure speaks well of the old Optar lenses and nowadays you could get two optars for the cost of the ektar... (okay, and maybe half the quality?) But if I was happy with the optar on the Speed, then why not of the View? For now anyway...

So, what do people do when they need full tilt and full rise? Or is that why some lenses go for 10 times as much as an old ektar? I guess I'll be 'suffering' for a while

Rich:

Another evil thought. A variety of 250-260 mm wide field process lenses keep turning up on eBay. Rodenstock G-Clarons, Konica Hexanon GRIIs, Kowa Graphics, Goerz Artars, and less well-known ones like Staebles (Agfa's house brand, the bought the company around 1969) badged as Agfa, Eskofot, Repromaster, Staeble. They can be very inexpensive, and it should be possible to mount any of them in front of a big shutter, e.g., a #5 Ilex . You'll have to educate yourself about what fits what (I keep thinking that some of them will screw into a Copal #1), but they're potentially a very cheap way to get something decent in that focal length range. You might even consider an ApoNikkor, they go for less than I can believe. All f/9 lenses, by the way.

As for 17" lenses, I ask you again, how close do you want to focus?

Cheers,

Dan
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hartwell_a_m



Joined: 04 Jun 2001
Posts: 84
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found that a camera show is a good place to purchase lenses and to get advice, the camera showa are not as pricey as E-Bay and the sellers are by and large small camera stores and colectors who know about the products they are selling. You should do a search and find the web site for a camera show near you.
BTW I'm using a 270mm Rodenstock lens in a Graflex shutter and it works fine on my GVII.

[ This Message was edited by: hartwell_a_m on 2002-02-13 19:47 ]
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-13 18:24, Dan Fromm wrote:
Rich:

Another evil thought. A variety of 250-260 mm wide field process lenses keep turning up on eBay. Rodenstock G-Clarons, Konica Hexanon GRIIs, Kowa Graphics, Goerz Artars, and less well-known ones like Staebles (Agfa's house brand, the bought the company around 1969) badged as Agfa, Eskofot, Repromaster, Staeble. They can be very inexpensive, and it should be possible to mount any of them in front of a big shutter, e.g., a #5 Ilex . You'll have to educate yourself about what fits what (I keep thinking that some of them will screw into a Copal #1), but they're potentially a very cheap way to get something decent in that focal length range. You might even consider an ApoNikkor, they go for less than I can believe. All f/9 lenses, by the way.

As for 17" lenses, I ask you again, how close do you want to focus?

Cheers,

Dan


I've seen the process lenses, and some very cheap. But I don't want to get hung up on what lens can be mounted and at what price. Afraid I'm a bit too much into instant gratification? Or not enough faith? But I've heard some prices for lens mounting and it isn't cheap...

As far as how close I want to get? There's no straight answer. My 375 tele will do about 14 feet on my Crown. I'm happy with that. It all depends on price, quality, shutter. There's always the option of screwing a close-up lens on the front of it if I have to get closer than what it will do. I was asking in the hopes that someone had used such a lens on a View II and could tell me from experience. Not all 375's use 375mm of bellows, and I don't know how much closer an extra inch will get on such a lens. (a 15 inch lens by the way).
Rich...

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